Tech tree - other dimension (probability)

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#31 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:21 pm

solartrix, about HoI pics, see here, also feel free to use Google Images search as well for many other examples. Stuff under requires is the tech needed, under allows are techs allowed, buttons in between are several diffrent areas (infantry, tank, navy, etc.), middle box is the given area tree view (white is done, yellow is being done, green is 'can be chosen', black is 'needs some requirement).

As for your matrix theory research idea - it is interesting. I actually designed a 2-level version of this for advanced Stars!,(what techs would be available to allied races based on their PTs) so I understand the implications of this - more or less. Assuming we would have 5 level 1 theories: A,B,C,D,E and level 2 theories would be made by their combination, we would end up with following lv2 theories: AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE, DE - set of 10. This is a a combination

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Quick calculation reveals that assuming all of the above would be calulated in the same way, we would have: 45 level 3 theories, 990 level 4 theories, 439560 level 5 theories...I think we would need to tweak this somehow, those numbers are growing way to fast, I am afraid.

And I dont reallly like the idea that player would have no control over what is researched - we should at the very least give him as much control as in SMAC.

Having said that, I do like the matrix idea - I hope we can refine it somehow and make it usable.

In other notes. I can live without sliders - we definetly dont need them for HoI-like application - but they would be useful for dividing points between application and theories. Unless we just treat theory research as one big research project that can be repeated and several instances of which can be carried simultaneously (each incresing the chance of discovering sth). Imagine it like this: HoI'sque tree for Applications and Theory all in one, with player being able to pick as many times as he wants (and can afford, obivously) the pick 'Theoretical Research A' (or B, C, D, etc. the letters being our main tech categories - mentioned growth, economy, military, etc.) - expensive, long, which result is: 25% chance of inventing new theory in field A, 25% chance of inventing new theory in random another field, 50% chance of inventing nothing. Sounds good?

Impaler, I have to admit I am not sure I understand your explanation of how MOO1 works. Do you mean that, for example, a level 35 application cannot be researched until several other applications which added value would be >35 are researched? If so, I have to admit that this sounds good - it is easy to understand and predict.

I definetly think we should have some element of chance - probability - in research. Since this discussion started, I belive nobody objected to it - and several ppl supported this idea - so I think it is worth keeping it. Apparently nobody (so far) thinks it would complicate the game, instead, the consensus is that it would be fun/playable, right?
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iamrobk
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#32 Post by iamrobk » Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:01 pm

Tieom wrote:Ah well... Too bad about the slider(s).

...

*throws his $0.02 down the drain*
lol, so true.

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skdiw
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#33 Post by skdiw » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:08 pm

Bastian-Bux wrote:skdiw, that might be true, but who says that every race is equally adept at every branch of the tech tree? Or who says that there won't be boni or mali for a partuclar research area (theory, application, refinement)?
Or who says that there won't be specific boni to severall techs for a race (like boni on algae farms and other ocean based thingies for aquatic races)?

There are many ways to form the research of a race without "capping" techs out completely. If my boni for shields add up to 100%, and my mali for armor are as high as 50%, well then I'll logically be 4 times better at shield techs then with armor.
I believe Aq said those.

Everybody had lots of ideas for randomness and unique techs for the tech tree, but the original developers didn't like it for balance reason. I had lots of suggestions and so did a lot of other ppl. Some suggestions were a small bonus in a specific field and a penalty in another, randomizing non-essential or non-prereq techs, unique techs, unique discoveries during space exploration like an anomaly accessible to all players or [edit1]completing some mission to further expand the Xploration aspect of the 4X game[/edit1], recurrsive tech trees or eras. I have also suggested that you can repeat researching the same theory multiple times so reduce cost and time for techs under that theory or some special bonus. Another idea was if you finish research a tech like "laser," refinements would be done by researching laser again so "laser" would turn into "continuous laser," then "auto-laser"... There were other ideas also. I also proposed doing that slider with 2 arrows on it long ago and variation with sliders theme. I think many of these ideas adds a lot of spice and won't unbalance the game too much, but I think Aq just wanted some basic template to start, then ppl can mod the tech when a final version is out.

[edit] note: computer was retarded so I punched into submit 3 times to hurry it up :p
Last edited by skdiw on Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
:mrgreen:

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miu
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#34 Post by miu » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:10 pm

by reading last few post, I start to get a good and clear idea how researchscreen would work out/be arranged UI-wise, but dont wait sketch for this during next week or so, I'm very busy with school ATM and I have that map-mode sketch to finish yet :)
Difference between a man and a gentleman is that a man does what he wants, a gentleman does what he should. - Albert Camus

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utilae
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#35 Post by utilae » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:22 pm

skdiw wrote: Some suggestions were a small bonus in a specific field and a penalty in another, randomizing non-essential or non-prereq techs, unique techs, unique discoveries during space exploration like an anomaly accessible to all players or [edit1]completing some mission to further expand the Xploration aspect of the 4X game[/edit1], recurrsive tech trees or eras.
I don't think we should have randomization. I can't say I like the idea of having to do a mission to get certain techs.
skdiw wrote: I have also suggested that you can repeat researching the same theory multiple times so reduce cost and time for techs under that theory or some special bonus.
I think this is a good idea. It is refining a theory, to go along with refining an application.
skdiw wrote: Another idea was if you finish research a tech like "laser," refinements would be done by researching laser again so "laser" would turn into "continuous laser," then "auto-laser"...
This is kinda what I would like, though I imagined it a bit different. Basically you research the application 'laser', which starts at level 1. It has some base stats. Then when you refine it, it goes up a level. It's stats increase (some stats would increase more because those stats are the weapons main stats). At a certain level the laser would 'learn' a mod, eg continuous, or shield piercing, etc.

The other idea with refinements (discussed between Ranos and I) was that each weapon is totally unique (like laser and wave). So you would not have laser, fusion cannon and graviton beam as seperate applications, because these are really refinements (they are exactly the same as laser, but have increased stats and a different color). The idea is that a weapon found early in the game could be useful late in the game. This is because the use of the weapon and the way the weapon acts is so unique. Refinements would allow competition between different types of weapons, eg wave and laser.

Also there was the idea of weapon mods being researched seperately from the actual weapons. So if you researched missile and laser previously. Then you researched splash mod, when you design a shup both weapons could possibly be equiped with the splash mod (of course you would expect a missile to have splash as default).
skdiw wrote: I also proposed doing that slider with 2 arrows on it long ago and variation with sliders theme.
I think this slider with 2 arrows is the best way to distribute rp to the three categories: theory, application and refinement, of course are we even gonna be distributing rp between these categories.

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skdiw
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#36 Post by skdiw » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:36 pm

utilae wrote:
skdiw wrote: I also proposed doing that slider with 2 arrows on it long ago and variation with sliders theme.
I think this slider with 2 arrows is the best way to distribute rp to the three categories: theory, application and refinement, of course are we even gonna be distributing rp between these categories.
I don't think that's what we have planned. The way I understood it was you have your rp stockpile that you gathered from your planets. Then on the research screen, you just click on the tech you want and thats it. Whether that tech is from theory, app, or refinement, you don't need to split your rp stockpile into three.
:mrgreen:

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#37 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:59 pm

utilae wrote: The other idea with refinements (discussed between Ranos and I) was that each weapon is totally unique (like laser and wave). So you would not have laser, fusion cannon and graviton beam as seperate applications, because these are really refinements (they are exactly the same as laser, but have increased stats and a different color). The idea is that a weapon found early in the game could be useful late in the game. This is because the use of the weapon and the way the weapon acts is so unique. Refinements would allow competition between different types of weapons, eg wave and laser.
This is a nice way of thinking, since it takes away fluff and leaves only game mechanics. We can always add fluff later.

The first problem game-wise is do we ant to split refinements from applications or not (I'd vote yes but there has been some opposition).

Then there is the question how many diffrent weapon types can be invented (quite a few) and programed (dunno?). I once drew a list of weapon parameters, and we could have quite a few based on parameters like:
- power (damage)
- % to hit (I hate weapons with 100% chance to hit, I think weapons should always have <100% chance to hit modified by stuff like computers/scanncers/ecm/speed/etc.)
- range
- power change over range (dissipate, yes or no)
- speed (instant - hit (or no) when they are fired, or projectile - moves in space as ship and may take several turns to reach the target)
- if projectile - homing of not?
- fire rate (fires every x turns)
- area effects (can hit how many ships with one shot? what shape is the area effected?)
- power/ammunition consumption
- energy type (based on fundamental forces, useful for differenting against defensive system and paper-rock-scissor fluff discussions), ie: strong and weak nuclear force, electromagnetic force, gravity
This actually deserves another thread :)
utilae wrote: Also there was the idea of weapon mods being researched seperately from the actual weapons. So if you researched missile and laser previously. Then you researched splash mod, when you design a shup both weapons could possibly be equiped with the splash mod (of course you would expect a missile to have splash as default).
This sounds very much like designing ship templates that Implaer, me and others discussed recently in the ship construction thread - seems like we are thinking along same lines, then.
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