General Diplomacy Thread

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iamrobk
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General Diplomacy Thread

#1 Post by iamrobk »

There are some diplomacy threads out there, but this is just kind of a general thread for it, with no real direction or anything. Mainly just to get ideas out, and some discussion as too the general way deiplomacy will work.

Anyway, my initial thoughts on diplomacy is that it should be one of the main parts of the game (up there with space combat, really). I think the ability to give tributes, borrow ships and such, and a lot of ways to interact would be awesome.

Ranos
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#2 Post by Ranos »

Back when I first joined, I started a thread and listed what I wanted to see in the diplomacy portion of the game. I'll repost it here along with a link to the original thread so you can see what other people said in regards to it. It didn't last for very long.

Here are my ideas on diplomacy options.

I) Treaties
--A) Peace-time
----1) Trade - Automatic trade of goods between empires. Generates money each turn.
----2) Research - Automatic trade of research between empires. Generates research points each turn.
----3) Intelligence - Automatic sharing of galaxy maps and known ship locations.
----4) Non-Aggression Pact/Right of Passage - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict.
----5) Defensive Alliance/Mutual Protection Pact - If an enemy attacks an allied planet or a ship within an allied system, a war declaration is demanded.
----6) Full Alliance/Alliance - If war is declared on an ally or by an ally, a war declaration is demanded.
--B) War-time
----1) Cease-Fire - Initiates a cease fire between warring empires. Ships currently in system do not engage in combat. Ships enroute arrive without conflict. Ships may depart the system without conflict if they are heading away from your territory. If a ship departs any system heading towrads your system, the cease fire is automatically broken. A large buildup of ships in shared system or in a system one jump away from the enemy is seen as a threat and the AI will warn you and if you do nothing, the cease ifre will be broken. The human player may initiate threats in this regard to the computer and if the computer ignores them, the cease ifer will be broken.
----2) Peace Treaty - War between two empires ends.

II) Trade
--A) Maps
----1) Galaxy Map - Trade map of your knowledge of the galaxy to other empire or request the same from them.
----2) Empire Map - Trade map of your empire to other empire or request the same from them.
--B) Money
----1) Lump Sum - Trade a specific ammount of money once to another empire or request the same from them.
----2) Per Turn - Trade a specific ammount of money per turn to another empire or request the same from them.
--C) Resources - Trade Luxuries or Strategic Resources to another empire or request the same from them.
--D) Technology - Trade specific technology/technologies to another empire or request the same from them.
--E) Ships - Trade a ship/ships to another empire or request the same from them.
--F) Planets/Systems - Trade a planet/planets or system/systems to another empire or request the same from them.

III) Mediation - This brings up a window in which you choose what warring races to mediate peace between.
--A) One empire vs. one empire
--B) Multiple empires vs. one empire
--C) Multiple empires vs. multiple empires

This can be a process that takes place over many turns and which the mediating party attempts to help the warring races to fid a compromise over what they are warring about. All sides of the conflict must agree to the mediation before anything else can occur.

IV) Requests
--A) Colony ship conflicts - with each of the below choices, a negotiations window would come up and trade offers would be made.
----1) "Your colony ship is in my system, please remove it."
----2) "I would like to colonize a world in your system."
----3) "I would like to colonize this world in our system. In return I will allow you to colonize this world."
----4) "I would like to colonize this world in this system. In return I will give you this world to colonize."
--B) "Please remove your ships from within my borders."
--C) "Will you declare war on this empire with me?"

I probably should explain some of these and some I may not have explained well enough.

Here is a link to the original thread: viewtopic.php?p=8816&highlight=#8816. I changed a few items and better explained a couple of them.
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Black_Dawn
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#3 Post by Black_Dawn »

Here's a sort of "flavour" idea for both Non-Agression Pact and Ceasefire.
In both cases, you may want to make the opposing empire more friendly/angry towards you without actually declaring war/suing for peace. Therefore, under both Non-Aggression Pact and Ceasefire you should have two sub-options (you can choose neither if you wish):

1) Allow licensed piracy: Pay "privateers" to raid the opposing empire. Reduces their trade and increases maintenance costs on their ships. Especially useful if they're far away. Drawbacks: cost slowly increases (pirates are greedy), could cause an increase in piracy in your empire when you end policy.

2) Sponsor cultural exchange: Show Bug-eyed Monster art in your museums, have BGM music festivals, political marriages, etc. Improves relations, increaes trade revenues. Drawbacks: money cost, could cause race riots, makes you more vulnerable to spies from their empire.

Whatcha' think?
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Getix
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#4 Post by Getix »

I) Treaties

--A) Peace-time

----1) Trade - Automatic trade of goods between empires. Generates money each turn.

----2) Research - Automatic trade of research between empires. Generates research points each turn.

----3) Right of passage - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict (NO REFUEL ALLOWED - REFUEL ONLY ON PAYMENT OF MONEY DEPENDING ON SHIP CLASS)

----4) Non-Aggression Pact - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict. (AND THEY CAN REFUEL AT YOUR FACILITY PAYING MONEY DEPENDING ON SHIP CLASS)

----5) Defensive Alliance/Mutual Protection Pact - If an enemy attacks an allied planet or a ship within an allied system, a war declaration is demanded. (AND TRADE INTELLIGENCE) (FRIENDLY EMPIRE CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT YOUR SPACE YARDS)

----6) Full Alliance/Alliance - If war is declared on an ally or by an ally, a war declaration is demanded. (AND TRADE INTELLIGENCE) (FRIENDLY EMPIRE CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT YOUR SPACE YARDS)

----7) Subjugation - If an enemy empire is subjugated, it will give you 20% of their resource production every year. If you start a war they will give you the command of their fleet and send you 40% of their resources (you can use subjugated empire supply line). In exchange you will offer "protection" against any other empire. (YOU CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT SUBJUGATED SPACE YARDS)


--B) War-time

----1) Cease-Fire - OK

----2) Peace Treaty - War between two empires ends.

----3) Local Cease Fire - Agree to not combat in a certain System (because there are other races/friendly empire)


II) Trade


--A) Maps

----1) Galaxy Map - Trade map of your knowledge of the galaxy to other empire or request the same from them.

----2) Empire Map - Trade map of your empire to other empire or request the same from them.

----3) System Map - trade map of system you discovered (but not yet colonized)


--B) Money

----1) Lump Sum - Trade a specific ammount of money once to another empire or request the same from them.

----2) Per Turn - Trade a specific ammount of money per turn to another empire or request the same from them.

----3) Loan - Loan an amount of money to another empire. the other empire will pay back the entire sum plus the interest in 10-15-20 turns

--C) Resources - Trade Luxuries or Strategic Resources to another empire or request the same from them.

--D) Technology - Trade specific technology/technologies to another empire or request the same from them.

--E) Ships - Trade a ship/ships to another empire or request the same from them.

--F) Planets/Systems - Trade a planet/planets or system/systems to another empire or request the same from them.

III) Mediation - This brings up a window in which you choose what warring races to mediate peace between.
--A) One empire vs. one empire
--B) Multiple empires vs. one empire
--C) Multiple empires vs. multiple empires

IV) Requests

--A) Colony ship conflicts - with each of the below choices, a negotiations window would come up and trade offers would be made.

----1) "Your colony ship is in my system, please remove it."

----2) "I would like to colonize a world in your system."

----3) "I would like to colonize this world in our system. In return I will allow you to colonize this world."

----4) "I would like to colonize this world in this system. In return I will give you this world to colonize."

--B) "Please remove your ships from within my borders."

--C) "Please remove your ships from system XYZ"

--D) "Will you declare war on this empire with me?"

--E) "Make peace with this empire..."

--F) "Make an alliance with this empire..."

--G) "Stop spying on me"

--H) "Stop spying on this empire..."



I've added what in my opinion is missing :)

*****
EDIT: Added some ideas about Vassels... May be interesting ...
*****
Last edited by Getix on Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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luckless666
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#5 Post by luckless666 »

----3) Right of passage - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict (NO REFUEL ALLOWED - REFUEL ONLY ON PAYMENT OF MONEY DEPENDING ON SHIP CLASS)

----4) Non-Aggression Pact - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict. (AND THEY CAN REFUEL AT YOUR FACILITY PAYING MONEY DEPENDING ON SHIP CLASS)
Whats the difference gameplay wise? Sure it could be 'cheaper' when in a non aggression pact but this could simply be replaced with how friendly a race is towards you. You don't want it to be too feature heavy when there's no need for it.

It would be better to say that non-aggression pact means you cant travel through there space but also when meeting any ships of theirs, no combat will take place. Right of Passage, however, does as you state. Also, a non aggression pact should be required before any of the other options open up.
----5) Defensive Alliance/Mutual Protection Pact - If an enemy attacks an allied planet or a ship within an allied system, a war declaration is demanded. (AND TRADE INTELLIGENCE) (FRIENDLY EMPIRE CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT YOUR SPACE YARDS)

----6) Full Alliance/Alliance - If war is declared on an ally or by an ally, a war declaration is demanded. (AND TRADE INTELLIGENCE) (FRIENDLY EMPIRE CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT YOUR SPACE YARDS)
And again. Whats the difference?

I like the overall idea of making diplomacy more dynamic, but you don't want it to become too complicated either. Whilst having different fancy names sounds cool (i think so!) if gameplay wise theres no differences between them (or not enough) then they are pointless.

Keep the ideas rolling ;)
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#6 Post by Impaler »

I see a lot of nice ideas for THINGS to conduct Diplomacy over and I am shure we can come up with a wide variety of options and add more as time goes on, but I wish to adress the METHOD of Diplomacy itself.

In all previous 4X games Diplomacy has been very simple, you make a selection of some sort (a gift, a demand, a treaty ect ect) and the other side imediatly gives its response, gernaly a yes or no sometimes a counter offer in more advanced games.

My view is that Diplomacy should be more like a kind of Combat that is Simustaniosly resolved between turns rather then exicuted imediatly. Your selections are acompanied by "negotiating strategy" and your Diplomates with haggle with the other sides Diplomates to hammer out an agreement.

With each passing turn the "on the table" deal is modified based on "combat rolls" between your diplomates, modified by Strategy and Racial Bonuses. Only once Both players choose to "accept" the deal dose it get conducted. By being a tough negotiator you can get sweeter deals, but you risk offending thouse your trading with so their is a risk/reward balance to consider.

On a related note Ranos spoke of Mediations between Aliances. The manner in which Aliances are handled still needs to be determined. Right off the top of my head I can see their are 2 main ways to handle Aliances, either as "Leages" or "Vassels" Perhaps both could even be avalible. Vassel is rather self explamitory, one Empire becomes subservient to another in exchange for something (usaly protection). Vassels can exit their relationship if they are unhappy. Leages are coequal relationships of 2 or more empires, no single Empire is "in charge" by default. Again members can withdraw at any time, desicions are made by some kind of mutualy agreement and coperation with the Leage might be optional much like NATO which could be described as a "Voluntary Mutual Self Defence/Military Research Leage". By Contrast the Soviet Union at its hight would have had the states of Eastern Europe as Vassels.
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#7 Post by Getix »

luckless666 wrote:
----3) Right of passage - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict (NO REFUEL ALLOWED - REFUEL ONLY ON PAYMENT OF MONEY DEPENDING ON SHIP CLASS)

----4) Non-Aggression Pact - Allows ships to pass through the empire without conflict. (AND THEY CAN REFUEL AT YOUR FACILITY PAYING MONEY DEPENDING ON SHIP CLASS)
Whats the difference gameplay wise? Sure it could be 'cheaper' when in a non aggression pact but this could simply be replaced with how friendly a race is towards you. You don't want it to be too feature heavy when there's no need for it.

It would be better to say that non-aggression pact means you cant travel through there space but also when meeting any ships of theirs, no combat will take place. Right of Passage, however, does as you state. Also, a non aggression pact should be required before any of the other options open up.
Well, in my opinion a non aggression pact means that if an enemy ship passes through your system (mistake and so on) and it has any problem you will help them. They can also scan your planet or similar..

RoP means that you can pass into my territory, but you can do nothing except passing.

luckless666 wrote:

----5) Defensive Alliance/Mutual Protection Pact - If an enemy attacks an allied planet or a ship within an allied system, a war declaration is demanded. (AND TRADE INTELLIGENCE) (FRIENDLY EMPIRE CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT YOUR SPACE YARDS)

----6) Full Alliance/Alliance - If war is declared on an ally or by an ally, a war declaration is demanded. (AND TRADE INTELLIGENCE) (FRIENDLY EMPIRE CAN REPAIR/REFUEL SHIPS AT YOUR SPACE YARDS)
And again. Whats the difference?

I like the overall idea of making diplomacy more dynamic, but you don't want it to become too complicated either. Whilst having different fancy names sounds cool (i think so!) if gameplay wise theres no differences between them (or not enough) then they are pointless.

Keep the ideas rolling ;)
The difference in a Mutual Defense pact is like Italy & Germany + Austria in WWI .. We declare war on someone IF they attacked you, not if you attack them!

The Full Alliance is more "attack" oriented.. If you declare war (and you are the aggressor) the other emprire will declare war also...
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Getix
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#8 Post by Getix »

Impaler wrote: With each passing turn the "on the table" deal is modified based on "combat rolls" between your diplomates, modified by Strategy and Racial Bonuses. Only once Both players choose to "accept" the deal dose it get conducted. By being a tough negotiator you can get sweeter deals, but you risk offending thouse your trading with so their is a risk/reward balance to consider.
MMh... Interesting.. So maybe:

The Cromist Empire want to enter in a Research Agreement with the Audi & Volkswagen Confederation..
Audi&VW wants only a trade agreement...

They start negotiating...

First turn:
You offer a gift of money, they want a planet,

Second Turn:
You don't want to waste a planet so offer money + tech

Third Turn
They say that a Ship and a Tech will make the deal, and you accept.
Impaler wrote: On a related note Ranos spoke of Mediations between Aliances. The manner in which Aliances are handled still needs to be determined. Right off the top of my head I can see their are 2 main ways to handle Aliances, either as "Leages" or "Vassels" Perhaps both could even be avalible. Vassel is rather self explamitory, one Empire becomes subservient to another in exchange for something (usaly protection). Vassels can exit their relationship if they are unhappy.
Maybe the "Vassels" con be handled as a Subjugation agreement...

But being a vassel does not mean that you declare war when the subjugator empire declares it.. Maybe the empire will ask you to give some resources/ships/supply lines (like in the Middle Ages, Vassels gave to the empire cavalery, money & food)...[/quote]
Getix "The Cromist", (20, 90, Italy, MI)
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Geoff the Medio
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#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Getix wrote:Well, in my opinion a non aggression pact means that if an enemy ship passes through your system (mistake and so on) and it has any problem you will help them. They can also scan your planet or similar..

RoP means that you can pass into my territory, but you can do nothing except passing.
Non-Agression -> Agreement not to fight wars. Does not grant right of passage. In fact, is an active agreement not to attempt to pass through eachother's territory, as doing so would be the first stage of an invasion (war). Generally signed by nations / empires that have previously fought wars, or who are both quite powerful and are fighting other wars that might snowball into larger-scale conflicts, such as if one of the signees is fighting an ally of the other. Eg. Russia and Germany in WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

Right of Passage -> Signed by nations / empires already at peace, or forced by one nation on another. Allows military and / or civilian movement through territory of another empire / nation. If signed by friendly partners, implies that passing troops will behave themselves while in other's territory.
The difference in a Mutual Defense pact is like Italy & Germany + Austria in WWI .. We declare war on someone IF they attacked you, not if you attack them!

The Full Alliance is more "attack" oriented.. If you declare war (and you are the aggressor) the other emprire will declare war also...
Full Alliance -> You would consult with your ally before attacking a 3rd party, and in general most such attacks would be undertaken by both, or neither, of the allies. Attacking a 3rd party without consulting your Full Ally would probably weaken the alliance.

Mutual Defence Pact -> Only kicks in when one ally is attacked by a 3rd party, in which case both allies defend the attacked against the attacker.

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#10 Post by Impaler »

Ofcorse you always how the optin to "Violate Treaty" for example in a Mutual Defece Treaty if your Alie is attacked you don't instantly and automaticaly declare war on that attacker. Rather your Alie will send you a "By the terms of our Mutual Defence Pact I Insist/Demand/Beseach you to declare war on so and so" and you can choose to do so or not.

No treaty will result in automatic war or somehow magicaly prevent you from conducting some specific activity. Rather you get a prompt "Are you shure you want to violate that treaty". Violating treaties incurese diplomatic penalties.

Also note that Violating is not the same as Breaking, any member of a Treaty can Break a treaty at any time which simply nulifies/removes the agreement and incurres a penalty less severe then a Violation. Violating a treaty will often cause such stress that the other party chosses to Break it (as your not holding up your end of the Bargain they dont feel obligated to hold up theirs). It can be possible to Violate a Treaty without inducing a Breaking, if so the treaty remains in effect and you may be called on to uphold it again in the future.

Esentialy Violating is saying "I will not honor this treaty in this particular case", Breaking is saying "I will not honor this treaty ever-again".
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Tone

#11 Post by Dreamer »

I would like to see an option when you send proposals to select the kind of tone you want to use. By default every 4x game asume that diplomats alwais act like bitches. So maibe a plea/demand/neutrally-ask option would be nice.

Other thing. I think the mediations and negocitions in several turns can be a good idea, but only if the player wants it. This should be an option at game creation.

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#12 Post by Zeno »

There should be short-game diplomacy and full-game diplomacy, as part of the short-game and full-game choices at the start of the game. The full-game should include the fullest range of possibilities, both of treaties and actions presented to me by other players, and of responses I can make to those actions.

Especially, I would like to see on the diplomacy screen the diplomatic status between each of the other players! (If there is no contact or no relations, that should be shown also) That way, I would know when I attack an empire who else I would offend. Also, if I make a treaty with an empire, then it should be harder or impossible to make a treaty with any empire hostile to that empire. (Except that if their other allegiances are weak and/or if my empire is very strong, then they may see advantage in making a treaty with me anyways) In difficult or impossible games, I absolutely must form alliances, or risk having all other empires against me!

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