Queue buildings from the Objects menu

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#31 Post by MatGB »

Not that I recall.

Hmm, X/8 chance, where X= turnssincefocuschange? Guaranteed to get it turn 8, might get it early?

If the tech unlocks a building that allows the focus on any world within supply we're good, and we can use the existing icon for the focus symbol, and it can be queued from the objects menu. I quite like that.

Any ideas for Gaia other than mine?
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#32 Post by Dilvish »

MatGB wrote:Hmm, X/8 chance, where X= turnssincefocuschange? Guaranteed to get it turn 8, might get it early?
I was thinking just 1/8 chance, no guarantee, it could take longer. But that's because I was thinking that we couldn't track how long they'd had the focus, but now it is crossing my mind that we can, using TurnsSinceFocusChange. So we could just say it takes 8 turns (or longer if they didn't have the PP, gotta figure out how to account for that). But at the end of whatever period, they could get the upgrade & then the focus could automatically swap to their preferred one.
Any ideas for Gaia other than mine?
Well couldn't the Gaia one be the same kind of setup as terraforming? Once you've worked out the script for one it should be easy to adapt it for the other.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

User avatar
Sloth
Content Scripter
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:28 am

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#33 Post by Sloth »

MatGB wrote:Any ideas for Gaia other than mine?
I always shared the opinion of eleazar and bigjoe: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6704&hilit=gaia

Especially:
eleazar wrote:Gaian planets that you can simply build everywhere (at high tech levels) loose some of their special-ness. Therefore i liked the idea of finding a monster/ship/artifact that allows you to turn a planet into a gaian rather than just building it.
or:
eleazar wrote:I've considered in the past, making Gaians that prohibited or limited industry. IMHO they need to be good for something practical, but downsides are fine too. Probably something tied into the future "happiness" stat makes the most sense.
All released under the GNU GPL 2.0 and Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licences.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#34 Post by Vezzra »

Dilvish wrote:Basically, the Terraforming Focus would impose some kind of productivity hit and give the planet a 1/8 chance of advancing to the next better environment. (and a lower chance, maybe proportional, if the planet's target values are below what the productivity hit would be).
Um, wouldn't the fact that you need to switch to the Terraforming focus take care of the productivity hit all by itself? While on terraforming focus, you can't use the planet for anything else. Then make the terraforming process really lengthy (after all, terraforming an entire world isn't a piece of cake ;)), I'd say 10 turns minimum, maybe even 15.

To make it even more costly, we can make resource meters (industry/research) drop to 0 immediately or at a much increased rate when on terraforming focus.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#35 Post by Vezzra »

Sloth wrote:I always shared the opinion of eleazar and bigjoe: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6704&hilit=gaia
This. A Gaian world should give you something really special and unique, but also come with some significant limitations/drawbacks so it won't make sense or be possible to gaianify colonies en masse.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13587
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#36 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Vezzra wrote:...10 turns minimum, maybe even 15.
Per step? Perhaps the per-step terraforming time should also be dependent on the distance from the original type, as the cost already is.

(Perhaps unless you have a terraforming boosting resource / tech...)

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#37 Post by Vezzra »

Geoff the Medio wrote:Per step?
Yes.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#38 Post by MatGB »

Vezzra wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:Per step?
Yes.
Aren't you the guy that, successfully, persuaded me the long wait between researching then actually launching late game ship hulls was bad to the game, and is generally against long waits for things generally?

Currently, terraforming gives a marginal benefit, but researching all the growth/construction techs gives you nearly the same bonus. If you make it take so long and basically remove a planet from contention, you might as well take it out of contention as an effect across the board, as using it'll be pointless, just research cyborgs and be done with things.

Now, I'm also in the camp arguing we need to tone down the growth techs, especially the hostile boosts, but not massively, I was partially doing it to make terraforming more useful generally rather than marginally useful as it now is. If you make it so long to do and so debilitating as you suggest, then it'll be not-fun and fairly pointless.
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#39 Post by Vezzra »

MatGB wrote:Aren't you the guy that, successfully, persuaded me the long wait between researching then actually launching late game ship hulls was bad to the game, and is generally against long waits for things generally?
:lol: You know what they say about exceptions and rules, don't you? ;)

Ok, seriously: Of course you're right, I've just tossed some numbers and ideas around, 15 for each step is probably really a bit much. That said, there is of course a difference between building a ship and terraforming a world. Planets don't get outdated, ships do, ships need to get to the frontlines after being build, planets don't. So it seems reasonable to limit the max build time for ships a bit more tightly.

And terraforming should be something really big, that requires big effort to accomplish, but of course needs to give you a big improvement.
Currently, terraforming gives a marginal benefit, but researching all the growth/construction techs gives you nearly the same bonus. If you make it take so long and basically remove a planet from contention, you might as well take it out of contention as an effect across the board, as using it'll be pointless, just research cyborgs and be done with things.

Now, I'm also in the camp arguing we need to tone down the growth techs, especially the hostile boosts, but not massively, I was partially doing it to make terraforming more useful generally rather than marginally useful as it now is. If you make it so long to do and so debilitating as you suggest, then it'll be not-fun and fairly pointless.
And that's the real issue here. The distinction between good, adequate, poor and hostile environments become to insignificant the more of the growth techs you get. While growth techs of course should be able to unlock environments previously unaccessible, and then improve your ability to support population there, the distinction should remain significant.

For example, it should be very difficult for a species that has a certain planet type as "adequate" environment to be able to support a higher pop there than another species that has the same planet type as "good" environment. Maybe only in cases where one has "bad" and the other "ultimate" population or something like that. You shouldn't be able to boost the pop you can support on hostile einvironments to the point where it's almost on par with good.

If that condition would be met, even expensive terraforming would become a viable option, because it provides the best boost available, one that can't be achieved by merely researching growth techs.

Of course that needs to be sensibly balanced. You can't make terraforming take 15 turns per step, requiring it to use a focus and drop all resource meters to 0 immediately during that time on the one hand and only get a moderate boost to pop as a result. As I said, I've been only tossing suggestions around. According to what you get out of terraforming, it might be fit better to have "only" 10 turns per step and just suffer the usual decline in resource ouput caused when you switch focus (which would be, assuming 10 turns, around 120-130 RP/PP loss in total?).

Personally I prefer terraforming to be something epic.

User avatar
MatGB
Creative Contributor
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#40 Post by MatGB »

OK, yes, agree completely.

Short term solution: change terraforming to a focus that requires a building within supply with odds as set out above, no major penalties attached otherwise.

Medium term solution: completely redo the growth techs so that hostile is always hostile, but livable and a standard species (eg Humans) will always do better on a Good planet than a Good Population species (eg Scylior) does—this should also include going over all the growth tech priorities so that Good/Bad Population can apply to some bonuses but not others, as currently they're the most powerful individual malus/bonuses available making the Good species overpowered unnecessarily. And when we've done that, make Terraforming more expensive/debilitating so that it is a major effort and a newsworthy success not just one of those things you do to every planet.

Agreed?

Going over the effects priorities was going to be an early project for me and Sloth next cycle anyway, and completely reworking the tech tree is one of those "needs doing but how much work?" tasks that we keep looking at and bouncing off. I also want to differentiate metabolisms a bit more and have different techs affect them in different ways (why would a Lithic species benefit from Cyborgs? Robots and Organics yes, Lithics? Nah).

Possibly might get all that done by, say, version 1.0? :-P :-D :lol:
Mat Bowles

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

User avatar
Sloth
Content Scripter
Posts: 685
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:28 am

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#41 Post by Sloth »

MatGB wrote:Short term solution: change terraforming to a focus that requires a building within supply with odds as set out above, no major penalties attached otherwise.

Medium term solution: completely redo the growth techs so that hostile is always hostile, but livable and a standard species (eg Humans) will always do better on a Good planet than a Good Population species (eg Scylior) does—this should also include going over all the growth tech priorities so that Good/Bad Population can apply to some bonuses but not others, as currently they're the most powerful individual malus/bonuses available making the Good species overpowered unnecessarily. And when we've done that, make Terraforming more expensive/debilitating so that it is a major effort and a newsworthy success not just one of those things you do to every planet.

Agreed?
You have my support.
MatGB wrote:Going over the effects priorities was going to be an early project for me and Sloth next cycle anyway, and completely reworking the tech tree is one of those "needs doing but how much work?" tasks that we keep looking at and bouncing off. I also want to differentiate metabolisms a bit more and have different techs affect them in different ways (why would a Lithic species benefit from Cyborgs? Robots and Organics yes, Lithics? Nah).
As Laozi said: "If you have to break the AI anyway, better drop the Nova Bomb on it right away."
All released under the GNU GPL 2.0 and Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licences.

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead and Programmer Emeritus
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Queue buildings from the Objects menu

#42 Post by Dilvish »

Vezzra wrote:You shouldn't be able to boost the pop you can support on hostile einvironments to the point where it's almost on par with good.
Here's a related proposal I've been ruminating on, I put it back in a more population-centric thread.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

Post Reply