GG generators are no-brainers

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Oberlus
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#31 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:54 am Hidden distributed neutral expansion is broken for Sly in MP because stealth is too easy to counter.
Disagree in part.
The flux bubble should get rid of that dynamic stealth malus and Sly could go rather well for hidden expansion for a long way.
However, human players could still outpost GGs just to cripple Sly expansion opportunities in packed-up galaxies (the ones in which you need the stealth, since when there is no body around you don't need to be hidden).
I played a 1v1 with swaq, he Chato, me Sly, and knowing I was Chato made him outpost GG even in systems without planets. That was a pretty effective strategy, and forced me to go military much earlier than I'd wish.

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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#32 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:25 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 9:54 am Hidden distributed neutral expansion is broken for Sly in MP because stealth is too easy to counter.
Disagree in part.
The flux bubble should get rid of that dynamic stealth malus and Sly could go rather well for hidden expansion for a long way.
Maybe I was bitten too hard in MP last time - was not prepared for lighthouse. Lighthouse makes it really hard to keep your GG hidden if there are other planets in the system. Stealth bonus for defense focus would have helped for a while.
GG-only systems are rare. And getting there was also spoiled by lighthouse.
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LienRag
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#33 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:25 am
The flux bubble should get rid of that dynamic stealth malus and Sly could go rather well for hidden expansion for a long way.
That would be a great change indeed. I stopped using Flux Bubbles after having a few destroyed even when my calculations made me think that they would not be detected.

I've never played Science-oriented Sly, I build Automatic History Analyzer to have at least some science done (else NAI takes more than fifty turns) and usually was able to get some Gis Ghrif to do the research for me (and providing supply early).

The problem I have now is that after I re-read carefully your proposition for how your GGG-like building would work, I quite like it and indeed it's different enough from SOG and other production-enhancing small wonders to add diversity rather than reduce it.

But I still consider that the way GGG work right now makes them unique and that a production-enhancing building that is not tied to Supply makes gameplay more diverse (which is a design goal).

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Oberlus
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#34 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 3:30 pm a production-enhancing building that is not tied to Supply makes gameplay more diverse
I'd really like to come up with fluff to justify a central building that doesn't require supply connection.
Ideas?

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LienRag
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#35 Post by LienRag »

That's too similar to how Research works so I'm not sure having it would be interesting gameplay-wise. Anyway it doesn't require any fluff, just make it a design bureau and the need for Supply disappears (which is not necessarily a good thing, because then there is no military way of disturbing its actions).

A central building that gives bonus through Stockpile could be interesting, though : planets which do not use the Stockpile this turn gets a production bonus (just one idea I throw, you may find better ones).
Or through any other non-linear way : through Scrying Spheres, through Stargates (even when not focused on Send or Receive), through Computronium Moons, through Red Stars, through contiguous Asteroid Belts, ...

Apparently you've seen my proposal for an infrastructure upkeep, so if it's adopted then it would be interesting to have one local-only production enhancer building (like the GGG is now, but it wouldn't be spamalot then and thus not a no-brainer) and one or more area-only production enhancer (effect applying one or two jumps away).

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Krikkitone
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#36 Post by Krikkitone »

Why have any building at all?

If the outpost is the major cost, then that should be the only thing built.

The only reason to have a building is if there is a decision involved (have it y/n, or where is building)

The ouposts and technologies do that by themselves....a building is a bad idea

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Oberlus
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#37 Post by Oberlus »

Krikkitone wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:32 pm Why have any building at all?
To differentiate it from microgravity industry bonus (another industry flat bonus non dependent on supply connection). Making the GGG bonus dependent on a central building that can be conquered gives it an (IMO) interesting twist.

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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#38 Post by ThinkSome »

yes, and then people will just put it on their homeworld (that has all the defence, shield and troops bonuses from palace)...

Still better than it is now.

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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#39 Post by ThinkSome »

GGG, solar, BHPG, EotV could all be buildings that take up so much infrastructure that you have to build them on medium+ size colonies set to infrastructure focus. Then players would be forced to both build them on separate planets and would not be able to set them to defense. Also, the infra focus could cause a malus to defence/shields/troops.

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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#40 Post by Voker57 »

Krikkitone wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:32 pm Why have any building at all?

If the outpost is the major cost, then that should be the only thing built.

The only reason to have a building is if there is a decision involved (have it y/n, or where is building)

The ouposts and technologies do that by themselves....a building is a bad idea
+1 this, needs to be made into auto bonus, then the big thinks about infrastructure and balancing can take place.
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swaq
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#41 Post by swaq »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 3:05 pm
Krikkitone wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:32 pm Why have any building at all?
To differentiate it from microgravity industry bonus (another industry flat bonus non dependent on supply connection). Making the GGG bonus dependent on a central building that can be conquered gives it an (IMO) interesting twist.
Does it need to be differentiated? I rather like how the microgravity bonus works.

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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#42 Post by Oberlus »

swaq wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 11:27 pm Does it need to be differentiated? I rather like how the microgravity bonus works.
Well, there is no need. But all flat bonuses are supply-independent and so can't be blockaded: Adaptive Automation, Microgravity Industry and GG Generators. They are all different with current implementation: AA affects all planets, MI only colonies with in-system outposted belts, and GGG only colonies with in-system outposted GGs and a building on the GG I wanted to remove the repetitive building queuing in the GGG, but not make it a different flavour of MI. With the central building we can make it supply-connected (which could be blockaded) and I think that is interesting for strategy.

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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#43 Post by ThinkSome »

micrograv and GGG should be blockadable by having warships in the system.

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Krikkitone
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#44 Post by Krikkitone »

ThinkSome wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 10:41 am micrograv and GGG should be blockadable by having warships in the system.
That seems like the solution
perhaps change micrograv to only require asteroids with no enemy outpost
(just empty asteroids in system are enough)
GGG requires actual ouposts

both are blocked by enemy ships

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labgnome
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Re: GG generators are no-brainers

#45 Post by labgnome »

I firmly, at least in theory like the idea of a supply dependent building, that would be build maybe 1 per supply group.

Maybe the Gas Giant Generator Complex, could also compete with a Gas Giant Research Network (which would produce research from Gas Giants in the supply network) and (later) a Gas Giant Resort Agency (which would produce influence from Gas Giants in the supply network) with each building being mutually exclusive to each other.
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