Heros and Sub-Heros

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Impaler
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Heros and Sub-Heros

#1 Post by Impaler »

I wanted to lay out a plan for how Heros might be handled and explain how this new animal called the "Sub-Hero" would differ from them. First off some basics about Heros. Most of this material is inspired by Heros of Might and Magic 3 and Knights of Honor (which itself rips of from HMM) and StarWars Galaxies which had BY FAR the best charater/hero managment ever seen in 4X game (which was the games only redeaming quality by the way)

Heros - A Hero acts a mobile set of modifeirs can that effect varius other things the player owns, they do this in one of 2 ways by holding a "Position" aka Planetary Vicroy, Fleet Admiral, Imperial Despot ect ect. Or by Performing a "Mission" aka Putdown Revolt, Espionage, Sabotage ect ect. Missions are temporary, Positions are held untill the player move the hero out of that Position. Each Position can only be held by 1 Hero but any number of Heros can share the Same Mission target. The player gains Heros by some means which they have limited control over. They could be Recruited from a Pool of possible aplicants or given to the player randomly as the game progresses. Heros could possible Die be wounded or captured by enemy empires (and tortured for secrets :twisted: ). The most important features of a Hero is that it is completly Unique and can become more powerfull through gaining experience. As follows are the data which would describe a Hero.

Portraint - A small Picture of the Hero that serves as a visual identifier, could use a transparent back ground to alow your Empires Flag/Emblem to be displayed as the Back Ground (also saves artist from having to make Backgrounds).

Name - The name should be assosiated with the Picture to keep further enhance the recognition. The player might also be able to change the name at the time the Hero is recived.

Basic Stats - Likly 4-6 core stats that define what the Hero is good at. This will require a lot of work as every action needs to be based of these stats in some way. I will need to know all the possible things a Hero can do inorder to come up with a good list of Stats.

Skills - Like in HMM and KOH the Hero can have a limited number of Skills that do a wide variety of things and effect almost every part of the game. Each Skill comes in 3 strengths Begginer, Advanced and Expert. The player has limited control over what skills the Hero has. All Heros start with 1 or 2 skills and gain new ones as they get better. The player might only be able to select from a limited set of random choices or might select a catagory with the player randomly reciving a skill from that catagory. If their are any means given to the player to control Skills directly their should be some cost assosiated with this. For example if you can build a "starfleet accadamy" to give a Hero a skill of your choice their is a "tuition fee" and the Hero is temporarily of no use to you when studying.

Type - It might be desirable to put each Hero in a tightly defined type which would limit what kinds of Positon and Missions they can perform. Say for example only " Rear Admirals" can comand Fleets and only "Diplomates" can conduct Diplomacy. Knights of Honor dose this as it has a wider variety of options for Hero actions then did Heros of Might and Magic in which the only purpose of Heros is to comand armies. ON the other hand StarWars Galaxies dosent force any types on its Heros and the realy powerfull ones like Darth Vader were capable of doing almost ANY action with high chance of success. All succuss or failure is based on the Core Stats in SWG without any Skills. A third option might be to make a skill for each type we might want to have so if the Hero has the "Admiralty" skill they can comand a fleet and if they have the "Diplomat" skill they can negotiate for you.

Level - When Heros do well they can level up and earn an extra skill and or incresse the level of a skill. Their Core stats see some improvment based on random rolls that take into account some Race preferences like that in HMM and type if we include that.

Age - I think it would be interesting if Heros eventualy die/retire. This would be done by rolling an gausian off of a standard age. The server keeps this age secret untill the characters "number is up" and then it kills the Hero. The standard age would be in game turns and could be differnt for each race. So many races in Sci-Fi are described as having a life span of 6000 years soit seems kind of silly to have their characters crock in the same amount of time. For Balance the Heros with shorter life spans gain experience faster.

Sub-Heros

Sub-Heros exist to fill the nitch between full blown Heros and "stuff" that you build through normal industry. Each race would have access to standardized list of Sub-Heros that do most of the standard things Heros can do such as Spy, comand Fleets, govern planets ect ect. They have some of the qualities of Heros but can be made by the player in unlimited numbers. Sub-Heros would almost certanly fall into tightly defined types which limit what they can do, likly each can perform only a single speficifc Mission or hold a single type of position. Sub-Heros lack most of the destingqushing properties of Heros. Their Charactersistics are.

Core Stats - The same core stats that Heros have (or perhps only the ones that are relavent to their job). These are almost always lower then a Heros. Their might be the potential for these numbers to incresse with experience or tecnologes.

Type - As I stated Sub-Heros are focused on a single job, each race probly has 5-6 types of Sub-Hero and they varry from race to race.in what they can do and in the value of their Core stats. For example the Darlok "Spy" Sub-Heros have higher (hypotetical Core Stat) "Evasion" then the Spys of other races.

Level - SubHeros could also have levels much like though of Heros but I would advise giving them a level cap of say 3 or something like that. If a Level 3 Sub-Hero is earning a promotion then it could be converted to a new Hero at level I. Sub-Heros recive only Stat incresses when they level up and the incresse should be simple and predictable like +1 to all stats.

Picture - Just like the Hero Picture but all Sub-Heros look identical and have a "generic" looking Picture with costumes apropriate to their jobs.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

drek
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#2 Post by drek »

fyi, the hero system of HMM and KoH first appeared in molydues's ancient Powermonger game.

I'd really like to do a political 4x space game (perhaps using freeorion as the base code) with a Powermonger style leader system: only leaders can move fleets, etc. Each leader belongs to a Faction that must be kept happy to retain the services of the leader, hence the importance of politics.

I'm imagining something in the flavor of Fading Suns: a shattered empire, with Xenos eating away at the borders, and a quest to unifiy the empire under your Faction's banner. The leaders would be special people: as the only one's capable of navigating a starlane, a Faction's power could be measured by the number of leaders under it's sway. They'd be super-nobility, perhaps with some superpowers unique to each character.

hrm, I digress.

Point is, if we have leaders in the game they should be intergrated fully into the game and it's fluff, instead of just another system tacked on to a growing pile.

Ranos
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#3 Post by Ranos »

I like the idea of heros as being similar to the leaders in MOO2. I would like them to be members of your own empire though and not mercenaries. Maybe there could be a combination in the political area but not in the military area. The political leaders would come from two places, famous beings from outside of your empire that you hire to help and people from withine your empire that randomly appear because they have "acheived" alot and become well known. Military leaders should be similar but should be created from battles, similar to Civ3's leaders.

I like the way Impaler has laid it out. The leaders are detailed and serve a purpose.

You system drek sounds more like automation and frustration to me. Since you have indicated that it would be more for a completely different game, I won't argue it too much.
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drek
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#4 Post by drek »

I'm not suggesting automation.

The leaders would work as they do in Powermonger, Heros of Might and Magic, Total War, etc. The players have total control---no leader acts independently of player action.

For example, an unhappy Systemlord could be brided into declaring his system independant. An unhappy Fleet Admiral could be brided into defecting, fleet in tow. In both cases, an actual player (even if it's an AI player) has spurred the action.

MisterMerf
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#5 Post by MisterMerf »

Heroes are important and can facilitate great player immersion. I think a system that gives any empire no more than, say, 8 - 10 heroes to work with will give players an emotional stake in their heroes and introduce a nice focus for their gameplay.

Limitless numbers of subheroes, on the other hand, seem pointless. Are they just extra micromanagement for the player to boost every ship, planet, etc in their empire? And automating their use doesn't seem interesting to me either.

Impaler
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#6 Post by Impaler »

I agree that in Moo2 and Moo3 and HMM the way the Heros all basicaly came from "pool" that all players were drawing from took away from the feeling of the Space Opera. The notion that Genocidal Intergalactic Wars would be fought with alien mercenaries rather then your own people seems rather obserd. Perhaps if you formed an Aliance/Federation with some aliens you might gain access to some of their Heros but I to have 100% forign mercenaries is bad. I want to realy feel that MY great and mighty empire has produced these Champions!

So basicaly what I am saying is we need a pool of Heros for each race and restrict the player to picking within only that group. If might still be possible to "turn" somone elses Hero to your side if you capture and brainwash them but I realy think calling it "Bribery" just sounds bad in a Space Opera it just clashes with the setting. This is my main reason for opossing the kind of stuff Drek has proposed for Heros it sounds like it would be more aplicable in games of a Medevil Europre or China setting ware everyone is Human. Aliens need to feel like aliens not just another nation of humans with a differnt culture who can be assimilated with ease. Getting aliens to voluntarily join you should be very very hard much like getting a minor power to join your Empire in Imperialism (requires at a minimum a spotless record towards them and their neihbors, copius trade relations and many many turns of generous forign aid).

To sumarize I dont think Heros should have anykind of "Happyness" or "Loyalty" or any means by which the Hero is going to initiate a Revolt or be susseptable to forign influence because the Empire hasen't pandered to him sufficiently. Revolts/Rebellions and other such Political actions should come from the politics and Happyness of the People as a whole not a single Hero who triggers or alows it without regard to the will of the people. If we realy realy must have some way for another player to control/manipulate your Hero then we could say that they secretly Brainwashed him into a "Manchurian Candidate", effectivly this works out the same a Bribery you spend money/resorces and gain influence but just sounds more like a Clockwork Orange and less "I gave him a Bag of Gold and he betrayed his entire species" kind of stuff that comes to mind when the word bribery is thrown around.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

Impaler
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#7 Post by Impaler »

Limitless numbers of subheroes, on the other hand, seem pointless. Are they just extra micromanagement for the player to boost every ship, planet, etc in their empire? And automating their use doesn't seem interesting to me either.
Sub-Heros ofcorse have some maintance assosiated with them just like Space Ships do. The number of Positions they can fill is limited by how much "stuff" the player owns so any more then what is nessary is a waste. A single Sub-Heros might be needed as "Officers" on each of your ships or as Pilots for a Fighter Squadron, Scientist at a Lab or Politicians for a planet and most especialy the Bulk of your Spy force.. Their simply a manufacturable comodity thats dose a simple job for the player.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

Ranos
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#8 Post by Ranos »

I don't think Heros should be able to switch sides in any circumstance. That takes away from them being Heros. If they are called Leaders, then that would be a possibility, but if capture and brainwashing is a method of doing that, so should bribery.

I have to agree that if we limit it to between 5-10 heros per empire, that would be the best. Adding in Sub-Heros would just add more micromanagement and would take away from the main heros.
200 and still a Wyrm!?! I don't want to be a Wyrm anymore. I've been a Wyrm for 100 posts now.

krum
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#9 Post by krum »

Just thought I should link the old Characters thread here:

viewtopic.php?t=86&highlight=leaders

LithiumMongoose
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#10 Post by LithiumMongoose »

I've always been a huge fan of MOO2 style heroes and that's something I've always hoped for in FO. I would definitely like to see both the ship captain/fleet admiral type and the planetary leader/industry leader type, but MOO2 limited you to 4 of each for a total of 8 I believe it was, and that was just plain frustrating. Personally I think there should be no limit, or a much higher limit, on the number allowed; there should be multiple ways to get them (stranded leader planet special, randomly appearing before you asking for a fee, great military victories, etc); and it should be possible to bribe or even brainwash enemy heroes (spies and spy tech obviously involved).

However I am opposed to Sub-Heroes. They add unnecessary micro and take away from the special-ness of the Heroes. I know you intended them to be weaker generic heroes that could fill as many slots as needed, making sure at least some sort of hero was present in every important fleet and on every important planet, but I'd rather see that handled by making a larger number of Heroes potentially available, and if you don't have enough for all your important posts, tough -- need better spying, more military victories, or more of whatever makes them more likely to appear before you (in the random pop up and ask for a fee for their service mode), which in MOO2 was a leader attribute called Famous.

MisterMerf
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#11 Post by MisterMerf »

LithiumMongoose wrote: MOO2 limited you to 4 of each for a total of 8 I believe it was, and that was just plain frustrating. Personally I think there should be no limit, or a much higher limit, on the number allowed; there should be multiple ways to get them
If the number of heroes is limited to a spare handful, it's much easier to get attached to individual heroes. In this space opera, that's very important.

As long as heroes are not so powerful that initiatives only have a chance of success with a hero backing them, the limit shouldn't be too frustrating.
LithiumMongoose wrote:It should be possible to bribe or even brainwash enemy heroes (spies and spy tech obviously involved).
If we are going for an emotional investment in heroes, converting enemy heroes must be made difficult. If they change hands like currency in a supermarket, it will subvert their importance into something much less fun.


Impaler: So far, no one else is seeing the benefit of subheroes (myself included). Why are they worth micromanaging?

Ranos
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#12 Post by Ranos »

There should be two categories in this system: Leaders and Heros. Leaders should be the ones you rescue from the planet, the ones who will join you for a fee and the ones produced within your own empire for planetary purposes. Heros should be produced by victories in space and ground combat. These would mostly be military leaders. If your planet was invaded and you defeated the invaders, a Hero could be produced who would be used for planetary purposes.

Leaders would be able to be bribed since they would just be politicians who rose to power or aliens who are aligned with you only due to the money you give them. Heros should not be able to be bribed. They are the ones who are so loyal to your empire that only death can separate them from you.

I would also like to see leaders and heros have lifespans like in MOO3.
200 and still a Wyrm!?! I don't want to be a Wyrm anymore. I've been a Wyrm for 100 posts now.

LithiumMongoose
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#13 Post by LithiumMongoose »

MisterMerf wrote:If the number of heroes is limited to a spare handful, it's much easier to get attached to individual heroes. In this space opera, that's very important.
Fine, so make the limit 8 ship heroes and 8 planet heroes, for a total of 16. I could live with that. But 4 of each type is not sufficient imo.
MisterMerf wrote:If we are going for an emotional investment in heroes, converting enemy heroes must be made difficult. If they change hands like currency in a supermarket, it will subvert their importance into something much less fun.
Absolutely agree. Losing one of your heroes all of a sudden should be a significant blow, and converting a good enemy hero a nice coup. There will also probably need to be a fixed Loyalty stat that determines ease of bribing, and a fixed Willpower stat that determines ease of brainwashing, for each hero.

Impaler
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#14 Post by Impaler »

When I said Brainwashing should be an option I ment Brainwashing = Bribery its just a COOLER NAMER FOR BRIBERY. Not as a whole Other means of taking control of Heros that requires a whole new stat and options and choices ect ect. Can anyone functionaly describe how their would be any game play difference between the two? As far as I can see its going to be "Spend Money >> Steal Hero" in either case with Brainwashing being easier to put in the Tec Tree aka "Advanced Hypnotic Drugs" vs "Advanced Bribery" :shock:

Ok it seems no one is realy liking the Sub-Hero idea, as I said its kind of a middle ground between regular Stuff like Ships and Fleets and the Heros who are all unique. The consern is that if activities like Spying are performed only by Hero's without any kind of Back up the player could find himself completly unable to do any spying if he losses/cant get any Heros. In Moo2 you esentialy had a group of Sub-Hero Spies that could be sent off to do nasty things to other Empires. This is kind of the idea I was going with.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

LithiumMongoose
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#15 Post by LithiumMongoose »

I dunno, I just think it'd be cool to have two ways to convert enemy heroes, one working better than the other presumably on any given hero. One requires a fancy developed spy network with spy tech, and the other requires a lot of extra cash on hand, so it'd depend on the state of your empire and the direction you chose to take. It would also mean not all heroes would be fair game for all enemies to try and steal, which would be good.

My apologies, this was the first I'd noticed you were talking about making Sub-Heroes and actual MOO2 spy units the same thing. I don't think it's been decided how we're going to implement spying in FO; it's very possible there won't even be spy units per se. In any case I'm not sure that's something heroes or sub-heroes should be involved in directly; they can provide passive bonuses for your spies, but serving as spies themselves? Seems a little dangerous compared to the ship leader and especially planet leader professions heh.

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