Planetary Defenses

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Ranos
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Planetary Defenses

#1 Post by Ranos »

I started this thread to discuss what types of defenses planets had, meaning things built that could not move away from the planet. Here's a basic list that I can think of right now:

Missile Bases
Fighter Garrison Bases
Ground Battery Bases
Planetary Shields (added)
Defensive Space Stations
Minefields

The names of these should sound good and if anyone can think of more, that would be great. What I don't want to see is the MOO2 and 3 style of defenses. One base per planet and thats it.

I would like to see each base, Missile, Fighter and Ground Battery cost about as much as a medium sized ship and take quite a few turns but allow as many as can be built. This would prevent the a single planet, unless somebody built them only on that planet, from getting too many, but would allow you to upgrade your planetary defenses from there basic start base. This would allow bases to be useful even in the late game.

There should also be a number of defensive stations allowed per planet and the moons of planets. This would also help in defense. These stations should not be easily destroyed, one station should be equal to a large TF in power.

Minefields would also help in defense. They can only be deployed 20 mines at a time but there is no limit.

Something that is different but belongs in the same category is the defense of star-lane entrances/exits. You should be able to build stations and minefields there too. These would cost more since they must be assembled at the edge of a system and the parts must be hauled out to them.

What are other ideas or thoughts do others have on this?

[EDIT]

I'll edit this post as others give more ideas.

How could I be so stupid to forget Planetary Shields. Thanks Impaler.
Last edited by Ranos on Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Impaler
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#2 Post by Impaler »

I like the Moo1 system inwhich you have a particular number of Missle bases that upgrade with better tecnology. Overall Defenses need to be stronger then they were in past Moo games. And dont forget about Planetary Shields either. The Moo2 style of defence is bad in my opinion because it puts a hard cap on how much defence you can actualy build aka one of each, players should be able to build as much as they can afford to support/fit on a Planet. Whole Fortress Planets would be a possibility.
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MisterMerf
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#3 Post by MisterMerf »

We have to be careful, though. If we decide to impose limits on the number of ships in combat at any given time (for server processing reasons, for instance) then it might be tricky to make the conquest of fortress systems possible at all.

Ranos
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#4 Post by Ranos »

Well if there is a maximum limit on the number of ships allowed in combat, then there would of course need to be a maximum limit to the number of defenses allowable per planet/system. I just don't want space combat to be like MOO3 where the planetary systems were nothing more than a nuisance.
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guiguibaah
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Previous threads

#5 Post by guiguibaah »

There are previous defence idea threads. Here's two that I posted a few ideas re: planetary defences.


Oh, and for castle systems, I feel system capture should be based more on strategy and less on mass production. A bit like the rock / paper / scissors effect where it takes 2 papers to beat 1 scissors. Planets can only put 4 kinds of defences on them, but they pack a heck of a lot of punch.

Do you put 4 missile bases that kick arse when it comes to defending against beamships, 3 batteries and 1 sheild that are great versus assault ships, or mix 1 missile, 1 battery, 1 fighter and 1 shield?


viewtopic.php?t=589&highlight=missile+base
viewtopic.php?t=743&start=0
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utilae
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#6 Post by utilae »

I think defenses would be more strategic if space combat was system based.

Also I think defenses should be more strategic, but ground combat should tie in to help you get past defenses.

eg
Send assault pods to planet with missile base.
Assault pods land.
Give mission - destry missile base.
You are told it will take 10 seconds/2 turns or something.
Little progress bar progresses.
When it is complete the missile base is destroyed.
Now you can bring your ships in past the planet, without fear of the missile base.

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Attacks

#7 Post by guiguibaah »

I'm not much of a fan of that idea, since it boils down to the same thing as a bombing run on the missile base, except slower.

What would be interesting is this:

1) Planetary bombs / re-entry missiles / etc can target planet defences and do direct damage. Use heavy payload ships.

2) Assault troops can be landed on a planet with heavy defences to take it over from the inside out. Planet takeover can span over a few turns. Use Fast assault raiding ships.

3) Sabotage troops target all defences / construction factilities / mines etc on the planet but do not take it over. Constantly maintain a presence that prevents any construction from proceeding. Use fast assault raiding / recon ships.

4) Implanted spies who have suceeded in a 'sabotage mission' have a bomb attached to a planet's defence system. When combat begins, the player can "click" them to detonate (ala Colonel Burton in C&C generals) or have them all detonate before battle begins. Use spies.

- - - -

If there is system combat, I believe it would be better that planet defences would either have short range / heavy damage (missile base, can't assist other planets) and long range / mild damage (fighter garrison, can assist).
That way combat is system-based (like a warcraft map) but planet-oriented (like attacking a warcraft enemy base) and taking over a system doesn't have to be a one-shot deal.

This is so Free Orion doesn't become a game of "who builds the most ships the fastest and simply throws them into combat-over-and-over" and negates the clever use of guile.
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#8 Post by Croesus »

Having it system based seems like the best idea to me. Especially if you have planets that move in orbit around a star, so that if their is a huge fighter base on one planet, then depending on its distance from the planet being attacked would determine how long it takes the fighters to get their.

Also, if it is system based, if I had a planet in the system with a fighter base, would I be able to use those fighters to attack a neighboring planet?

I also liked the idea of system ships in MoO3. Although it was annoying to have such old derilicts, it was nice to be able to have ships that were stronger than the ones with hyperdrive. So if we have system ships, we should be able to move them to another system with freighters or something. Also, are we refitting?
Hi.

MisterMerf
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#9 Post by MisterMerf »

guiguibaah wrote: That way combat is system-based (like a warcraft map) but planet-oriented (like attacking a warcraft enemy base) and taking over a system doesn't have to be a one-shot deal.
This is the best statement of that combat ideal I've yet seen. Bravo!
utilae wrote: Send assault pods to planet with missile base.
Assault pods land.
Give mission - destry missile base.
You are told it will take 10 seconds/2 turns or something.
Little progress bar progresses.
When it is complete the missile base is destroyed.
Now you can bring your ships in past the planet, without fear of the missile base.
Sending assault pods at a planet through space you don't control. Every time you suggest this, I cringe. How do you plan on doing this so that this tactic isn't:

A) Overpowered - Assault pods almost never fall to point defense and rarely fail to achieve their mission.

B) Useless - Modest defense can nullify assault pods, making them essentially useless (as they are only needed if planet-side resistance is heavy).

The only way past this that I see is to make assault pods start out fairly useless and making them gradually closer to overpowered through research.

This way, planetary defenses still have a point (one batch of easily obtainable assault pods renders them useless) and assault pods aren't just a silly doodad themselves.

Then you have to worry about making them worth the research, which might involve making planetary defenses truly formidable, which in turn might make asssault pods the only viable strategy....yadda yadda yadda.

SUMMARY: Assault pods = hard to balance, variety-killer

Impaler
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#10 Post by Impaler »

First off let me say welcome to Croesus, I suspect your the same Croesus who joined the Nautulus Pirate faction in the Second SMAC Democracy game? If so sorry about having to crush you guys the desision was made before I joined the Cycon team.

System Ships sound good to me, it would require that Speed in a Starlane and Speed in space combat be seperate factors ofcorse (nothing wrong with that in my opinion). The option of having some kind of ship that hauls them through Hyperspace also sounds good. It would be a bit like the Mothership in HomeWorld carrying all the fighters around with it when it makes a jump.
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utilae
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#11 Post by utilae »

MisterMerf wrote: A) Overpowered - Assault pods almost never fall to point defense and rarely fail to achieve their mission.

B) Useless - Modest defense can nullify assault pods, making them essentially useless (as they are only needed if planet-side resistance is heavy).
The solution is we balance it better than past games. But really assault pods are not the only way. You could park a troop transport close to a planet and deploy troops oin the planet.

Also point defence is not the only way to stop assault pods. There should be ground defenses. That is, defenses that only attack ground targets, like troops in ground combat.

We could make it so that assault pods and anti assault pods are both equal at the same tech level, though you may choose not to research both of them, ie research one more than the other, resulting in exposing the enemy to your assault pods, or them increasing there defenses against assault pods.

There should be a few ways of getting troops onto a planet.

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Assault Pods

#12 Post by guiguibaah »

This is how I see Assault pods being used - granted, it is just my view, but I think it would be interesting.


You would not use Assault Pods if you had a strong fleet that could take down enemy defences. Not would you use them if you had an excellent spy network capable of disabling / destroying defences when combat starts. Instead you would use regular troop transports to take over a planet after you'vwe won the space battle.


You would use assault pods if A - the system is heavily defended, but the enemy's fleet is on the other side of the galaxy, the enemy cannot bring in reinforcements in time (1 or 2 turns) fast enough to quell the assault taking place on the planet., and you don't have a large ship fleet. Or B - His defences are so great that you really need to soften them up somewhat before pressing the main attack.


On turn 1 of the fight, you'd send in your quick & stealthy assautl frigates that are designed to circumnavigate (at best) the defences of the planet. Once they get close enough, they bomb the planet with troop pods, and bugger out as fast as they can.

It is much like a planetary DOT (Damage Over Time). The enemy, if he's aware, would quickly send in an auxiliary fleet with troops to quell the planets. But it would be unwise to bunch up his entire fleet and send them there. Why? Because 3 turns later, another pack of assault frigates have dropped pods on the other side of the empire.


My rationale is that, in moo2 and other space sims, the battle often was won with who had the largest fleet, and that largest fleet was almost always clumped into a big morass.

Assault pods would offer a cheaper way to harrass a player / enemy who always keeps his fleet together. If you want to defend against such an attack, you'd be best to split your ships into 3 or 4 fleets to prevent such raiding attacks.



It's a bit like in Starcraft. I would create 2 or 3 groups of 6 wraiths and maybe a valkyrie, and run about the map doing hit-and run attacks on various zerg bases. Once the "Big mother " swarm of 24 mutalisks / guardians / etc.. arrive I'd run away as fast as I could (but not before doing some damage), then attack his expansion on the other side of the map with my other group of wraiths. Now he sends his mutalisks there. By the time they get there, I've already popped his drones, I run away, and my 3rd group attacks another base while my 1st goes after his main. He ends up loosing not because he had a bigger army, but because he didn't split it up .
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#13 Post by Impaler »

Harrasment Tactics = Excelent

Anything we can do to encourage Harasment is a good thing, I like the idea of these Assault Pods, esentialy they are like a slow acting Bomb (DOT as you say) that can by pass planetary shields. I would expect that heavy Troop Precense and/or Security spending though would nulify them. I kind of think of these Pods as being "Suicide Comandos" who land in small groups and stealth around on the planets surface trying to destroy the Defences (or possibly do any other kind of nasty thing like Probe Teams in SMAC do).
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#14 Post by haravikk »

I think that defences should still be limited, but this limit should increase with population size so that bigger planets can get more defences.

Planets such as those designated as shipyards would gain more slots as the shipyards increase in size (arms with platforms extending from the planet for example).

In this way planets can have more than one measly defence of each type, and could instead have a load of missile bases.
Defences such as mines would be unlimited, but should have a maintenance cost that will kill you if you just make a solid wall of mines around your planet that blocks out the sun which is after all another kind of enemy.

I think however that planets should really rely more on defensive fleets, these should be easier to build than in MOO3, and automatically refit as new technology becomes available. In MOO3 you would have your home-world defended by utter rubbish which brought down your decent defence ships to 200 speed.

I liked the MOO3 system of orbitals where you can have them circling moons and such, but bigger planets should have bigger limits to how many orbitals they can have, this would be independent of population except as far as actually building the things is concerned.

So in essence, limits on the 'big' defences, but no limits on defensive ships, with automatic refitting of everything as required.

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Re: Assault Pods

#15 Post by utilae »

guiguibaah wrote: Instead you would use regular troop transports to take over a planet after you'vwe won the space battle.
I would rather that both assault pods and troop transport ships be able to have an effect within battle. So if troops land during battle, then there is a set time before they disable a missile base or something. The time would take a while, might even have to wait til a few turns later before that missile base is gone, of course better ground troops could disable the missile base faster. Naturally ground defenses would slow or even stop their mission. Of ground to air defenses are also in the way, as you have to land your troops first, which may be impossible if you have heavy pd defenses.

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