Power: It's use in space combat

[utilae]

That sounds like its based on a realism arguement but for me, its immersion. I would lose my immersion in the game if my ships were running out of power every time they fired a weapon.

I said that if your ship fired a weapon it would not decrease the power bar. Your ships power bar would only decrease as a result of enemy weapons.

Also the idea of prioritising weapons allows the player to determine whether weapons will stay online or whether ship movement will stay online for example.

You could design your ship to have shields at high priority. Then in battle when enemy ships take down your energy bar, with shield piercing power damaging weapons in an attempt to disable shields, your shields would stay online longer.

[Impaler]

I wouldnt make power priitizing part of the ships design for 2 reasons, first theirs the micro managment of needed to make the assignment for every single ship when its designed or redesigned. Second it kills the whole tactical aspect of the power managment that I discussed earlier. With power managment rolled into a Tactical order you simply things a great deal for the player both durring ship design and battle. The player makes their own custom Tactics (with cool names) and issues these as orders durring battle for example.

Attack Patern "Talon" : Open Claw Formation, High Agrresion/loss tolerance, Power Priority #1 - Engines, #2 - Weapons, #3 Shields, Target Priority #1 - Capital Ships, #2 - Non-Combat ships, #3 Escort Ships.

All you need is a Target and a Tactical Order for you ships to know what to do.

[Ranos]

That sounds like its based on a realism arguement but for me, its immersion. I would lose my immersion in the game if my ships were running out of power every time they fired a weapon.

I said that if your ship fired a weapon it would not decrease the power bar. Your ships power bar would only decrease as a result of enemy weapons.

So shields have hp and drain the power from your ship!?! NO! If a ship has hp then that is it. That is the power consumption right there. We don't need to mess with a ship losing power and having to stop firing because of some ridiculous power drain. Ships get disabled from taking damage to the engines or electrical system. That's it. It is simple, easy to understand and does not require any microing or extra time in ship design.

Also the idea of prioritising weapons allows the player to determine whether weapons will stay online or whether ship movement will stay online for example.

I know what the purpose of it is, it is still an unnecessary and time consuming part of ship design that just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

You could design your ship to have shields at high priority. Then in battle when enemy ships take down your energy bar, with shield piercing power damaging weapons in an attempt to disable shields, your shields would stay online longer.

But you would lose weapons, propulsion, etc. This is just an idea for causing a big mess in combat. It would take away from the fun of combat, not add to it.

I wouldnt make power priitizing part of the ships design for 2 reasons, first theirs the micro managment of needed to make the assignment for every single ship when its designed or redesigned. Second it kills the whole tactical aspect of the power managment that I discussed earlier. With power managment rolled into a Tactical order you simply things a great deal for the player both durring ship design and battle. The player makes their own custom Tactics (with cool names) and issues these as orders durring battle for example.

Attack Patern "Talon" : Open Claw Formation, High Agrresion/loss tolerance, Power Priority #1 - Engines, #2 - Weapons, #3 Shields, Target Priority #1 - Capital Ships, #2 - Non-Combat ships, #3 Escort Ships.

All you need is a Target and a Tactical Order for you ships to know what to do.

You thinkn that this would be less complicated and micro intensive than utilae's idea? This is far more complex. Utilae is talking about setting the priority in the design screen. You set it once and every ship of that type that is built has that priority. In yours, you have to set it in every battle. That would be lots of extra microing and make battles and command phases take even more time.

Either way, it is a bad idea. I'll ask my question a different way. Who is going to design anything that is going to run out of power in the middle of being used? Fuel is the only thing that runs out. You always make sure you have enough gas in your car before you go anywhere. On a long trip, you stop at a gas station and fill up. The only way you run out is through neglect or procrastination.

Power consumtion would be nothing but a big headache both in micromanagement and just plain annoyance that your ships lose their usefulness in the middle of battle. We don't need power and hp to worry about. HP will work just fine. Lose hp, lose your ship.

[discord]

ranos: the idea of a 'alpha strike' ship, does interest me, not enough power generation for continous fire, but 'energy reserves' to lob of a full blast or two, more blast for the buck, but at a cost of endurance, after that...well hopefully you are out of targets before you are out of juice....

/edit
might add that a weapon system(and most other things) are not much of a constant drain on power supply, only when activated....for instance, the big huge frikkin plasma planet buster uses very little power if not in actual use....actualy the biggest power drain on a such should be powering up the magnetic containment, wich should be super conducting....and creating the ammo....
//edit

[utilae]

So shields have hp and drain the power from your ship!?! NO! If a ship has hp then that is it. That is the power consumption right there. We don't need to mess with a ship losing power and having to stop firing because of some ridiculous power drain. Ships get disabled from taking damage to the engines or electrical system. That's it. It is simple, easy to understand and does not require any microing or extra time in ship design.

You misunderstand once again. Shields would not drain power, nothing would. The power bar I refer to is the same as the 'engines or electrical system' you speak of. The only difference is that components have priority set at design time. So as the enemy uses their Ion Cannons (that only damage electrical systems/power bar) higher priority components will stay online, while lower priority components will be allowed to fail (this is automatic during battle). And the priority being set in design time is optional.

But you would lose weapons, propulsion, etc. This is just an idea for causing a big mess in combat. It would take away from the fun of combat, not add to it.

It is about designing your ship to keep its weapons over its propulsion when energy is low. Ships designed in this way are fierce in combat because they still have weapons at low power, but have accepted that if they loose, they cannot run.

Either way, it is a bad idea. I'll ask my question a different way. Who is going to design anything that is going to run out of power in the middle of being used? Fuel is the only thing that runs out. You always make sure you have enough gas in your car before you go anywhere. On a long trip, you stop at a gas station and fill up. The only way you run out is through neglect or procrastination.

It is not about desiging your ship to run out of power, because your ship will run out of power if the enemy starts damaging your electrical systems in an attempt to disable your ship. Piorities help you to use one important system over another in such circumstances. For example setting engines to highest priority means that when the enemy tries to disable you to board, you still have engines, so you can run. This could be life saving. Without priorities all systems would shutdown because they are all trying to stay online. Your ship would be disabled sooner as a result.

[Ranos]

I understand now. The problem is that there shouldn't be priorities. It should be either random systems or all systems keep functioning until the number hits zero.It isn't that power gets drained when these weapons hit, its that the electrical systems get overloaded and short out. You can't really select which component gets hit.

[utilae]

It isn't that power gets drained when these weapons hit, its that the electrical systems get overloaded and short out. You can't really select which component gets hit.

Think of priorities as strengthing certain systems against the possibility of overloaded electrical systems. When you raise the priority on engines you are making them less prone to electrical overload, etc so they do last longer when power and electrics are serverely stressed.

[Ranos]

It isn't that power gets drained when these weapons hit, its that the electrical systems get overloaded and short out. You can't really select which component gets hit.

Think of priorities as strengthing certain systems against the possibility of overloaded electrical systems. When you raise the priority on engines you are making them less prone to electrical overload, etc so they do last longer when power and electrics are serverely stressed.

But it isn't strengthening certain systems against overload. Its deciding what to shut off first. If you want to strenghten systems, then make that an option when slecting the system in the desing screen. This should increase the size of the item as well as the cost. Then when the shot hits and the component that is hit is selected, it doesn't go out right away. It takes another hit to knock it out.

Being able to select what on your ship goes out first takes away from the experience of it as well as the skill. If you select engines to be a top priority, meaning they are the last thing to go, then you can take a bunch of hits and then make an attempt to run away. It would be more fun if it was random, resulting in the possibility of your ship having to sit, which makes it more vulnerable to attack. It can't be boarded because it's weapons are still working and any ship that attempts to get close enough to deploy troops is going to receive some very heavy damage.

[Getix]

Being able to select what on your ship goes out first takes away from the experience of it as well as the skill. If you select engines to be a top priority, meaning they are the last thing to go, then you can take a bunch of hits and then make an attempt to run away. It would be more fun if it was random, resulting in the possibility of your ship having to sit, which makes it more vulnerable to attack. It can't be boarded because it's weapons are still working and any ship that attempts to get close enough to deploy troops is going to receive some very heavy damage.

Well, IMHO, we should combine the 2 things..

My idea does not comprehend the "overloading" of any ship system, but it could be easily added..

So, you got a Power Priority and a Random Damage. Power Priority depends on ship design, Random Damage from enemy weapons.

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My ship (the "CromaCHT" heavy battleship) has got this power priority:

1) Engines - 5 Engines adsorb 50 GW
2) Shields - 2 Shields Generator adsorb 20 GW
3) Life Support System - LFS adsorb 30 GW
4) Weapons - 10 Weapons adsorb 100 GW
5) Hull integrity (*) - HI consumes 10 GW
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(*) means how much energy can be used by drones/bots/engineers to repair ship during battle
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So, total consumption is: 210 GW
My power plant produces 250 GW.
Total surplus: 40 GW
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That means that my PP can be damaged and my ship could go on working at 100%.
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Now i fight VS the enemy ship "PassatTDI"..

During the encounter, i receive a direct damage of 100 GW to the power plant.. Damn, that's bad

So, 40 GW surplus - 100 Gw damage = -60 GW.

Point 5, hull integrity, is now disabled.. And then 5 more weapons are disabled..

New situation:

1) Engines - 5 Engines adsorb 50 GW
2) Shields - 2 Shields Generator adsorb 20 GW
3) Life Support System - LFS adsorb 30 GW
4) Weapons - 5 Weapons adsorb 50 GW
5) Hull integrity - HI cosumes 0 GW (DISABLED)

PP energy production: 150 GW

After some more turns, my CromaCHT get shot again by that awful ship, and this time the damage is directed on Shields Generator.. It did not touch anything else! Shields Gen are gone!

New situation:

1) Engines - 5 Engines adsorb 50 GW
2) Shields - 0 Shields Generator adsorb 0 GW (DESTROYED)
3) Life Support System - LFS adsorb 30 GW
4) Weapons - 7 Weapons adsorb 70 GW (3 DISABLED)
5) Hull integrity (*) - HI consumes 0 GW (DISABLED)

PP prod: 150 GW

Some weapons are back online...


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More turns passes...
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Finally PassatTDI is destroyed, so now we can see how far did the real damage get on CromaCHT...

1) Engines - 5 Engines adsorb 50 GW

Ok, no damage here

2) Shields - 0 Shields Generator adsorb 0 GW

Destroyed...

3) Life Support System - LFS adsorb 30 GW

Ok, no damage here

4) Weapons - 4 Weapons adsorb 40 GW

6 Weap have been destroyed

5) Hull integrity (*) - HI consumes 0 GW

Bots have been destroyed.

Total energy needed: 120 GW
PP production: 150 GW
Surplus: 30 GW

My 0,02 Euros.

[Impaler]

People are begining to confuse the issues here

Power Prioritization is desiding how to divide up a limited amount of power between systems that have a greater total demand then can be satisfied.

Damage to a specific system that causes it to become in-operable is a seperate issue, obviously damaged components no longer have the ability to use power.

What I am proposing is that we combine Power Prioritization by system type (Weapons, Shields, Engines ect ect) with Tactical orders. The player designs their Tactical Orders outside of battle (NOT INSIDE AS RANOS ASSUMED). Then they give these orders along with a Target (either a ship or location) and the ship direct their power as desired and perform what ever actions their supposed to. The player only selects from a list of about a dozen Tactical Orders. And ofcorse we provide some default pre-made ones for newbies. Their is nothing in the ships design here that desides power priority. The player realy just desides how much power they want to have on the ship. They can have more or less power then all the components on the ship will use.

Another interesting idea might be to "Overload" a system with Extra power beyond its designed limits. The equipment gets a temporary bost as long as the Overloading is sustained. For example lets say a Laser normaly takes 10 power and dose 10 damage, when Overloaded it can do 15 damage but consume 20 power. Overloading might also carry a risk of damaging a system especialy if used for long periods of time. When used with Engines we call this process "OverDrive" and it should prove excelent for running away when you get whooped in battle.

Theirs also been some discussion of "Batteries" or some other short term power generating devices. These could add some very interesting options to ship design and tactics (I'm reminded of a Great episode of StarTrek that involved a battle with a Romulan War-Bird, power consumption proved key to the battle). Batteries would have a storage capacity and a "Power Flow" that determines the maximum charging and discharge rate. The Power Prioritizing will determine if the Battery is Charging or Discharging. When Discharging the Battery acts as a powerplant with its PowerFlow being the amount generated (The ships power-bar will surgue upwards when this happens to show the extra juice). When the battery is Charging it acts as another power consuming device and has a position in the power priority. It can draw an amount of power equal to its Flow and replenish its reserves. Some types of Batteries have very high Flow rates and are sutable for huge busts of power, others have better overall storage for long term usage.

[Getix]

Power Prioritization is desiding how to divide up a limited amount of power between systems that have a greater total demand then can be satisfied.

Damage to a specific system that causes it to become in-operable is a seperate issue, obviously damaged components no longer have the ability to use power.

Ok, you are right. In the case that i showed on the last message there is a Power redistrubution (HI gets out of order/disabled).

What I am proposing is that we combine Power Prioritization by system type (Weapons, Shields, Engines ect ect) with Tactical orders. The player designs their Tactical Orders outside of battle (NOT INSIDE AS RANOS ASSUMED). Then they give these orders along with a Target (either a ship or location) and the ship direct their power as desired and perform what ever actions their supposed to. The player only selects from a list of about a dozen Tactical Orders. And ofcorse we provide some default pre-made ones for newbies. Their is nothing in the ships design here that desides power priority. The player realy just desides how much power they want to have on the ship. They can have more or less power then all the components on the ship will use.

Ok, so you can also allow to create ships which does need 250 GW with a power polant of 150 GW? In that case some systems will be always off-line BUT if you modify Power Priorit. they can become ONLINE? I agree, that should be left as a possibility (think about "suicide" ships).

Another interesting idea might be to "Overload" a system with Extra power beyond its designed limits. The equipment gets a temporary bost as long as the Overloading is sustained. For example lets say a Laser normaly takes 10 power and dose 10 damage, when Overloaded it can do 15 damage but consume 20 power. Overloading might also carry a risk of damaging a system especialy if used for long periods of time. When used with Engines we call this process "OverDrive" and it should prove excelent for running away when you get whooped in battle.

Ok, i partially agree with you. IMO Overloading will create a big problem for AI and also for players. As far as I'm concerned Priotizing is enough. Overload creates also problems: what will happen if I overload Life Support System? Can I Overload that or only Shields, Engines & Weapons will be overloadable?

Theirs also been some discussion of "Batteries" or some other short term power generating devices. These could add some very interesting options to ship design and tactics (I'm reminded of a Great episode of StarTrek that involved a battle with a Romulan War-Bird, power consumption proved key to the battle). Batteries would have a storage capacity and a "Power Flow" that determines the maximum charging and discharge rate. The Power Prioritizing will determine if the Battery is Charging or Discharging. When Discharging the Battery acts as a powerplant with its PowerFlow being the amount generated (The ships power-bar will surgue upwards when this happens to show the extra juice). When the battery is Charging it acts as another power consuming device and has a position in the power priority. It can draw an amount of power equal to its Flow and replenish its reserves. Some types of Batteries have very high Flow rates and are sutable for huge busts of power, others have better overall storage for long term usage.

[/quote]

Battery could also be a good idea, but maybe they should be lasting not too long (let's say 2-3 rounds of combat). Or maybe batteries could create "storage" problems like being quite "big" or being very "Energy Consuming" while reloading.

In your opinion, should a system be left operative also if it does not have a full supply of energy?