Social Enginering Groups

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Message
Author
METhomas
Space Floater
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 5:19 am
Location: Hawaii

#16 Post by METhomas »

Yaromir said: "Hrm...you know a Slavic language?"

No, I have only a very superficial knowledge of the Slavic languages. I wrote a baby name book when I was 23 and had to become familiar with various languages in order to understand the origins of the names on my list. When I saw your name, I thought, "Yaromir, huh? That's familiar."

Impaler, how is this list for government types to keep from using the same name multiple times with a modifier?

Dictatorship — Government by a single individual who does not hold a 'royal' title, such as a military dictator. (Ex.: 1. Spain was officially a monarchy under Franco's dictatorship, though no king sat on the throne. 2. Saddam Hussein was dictator of Iraq though it was officially a republic.)
Theocracy — Government by religious authorities.
Tyranny — Here it could designate an Absolute Monarchy.
Monarchy — Here it could designate a Constitutional Monarchy, with a democratically elected parliament, but with a highly centralized government.
Oligarchy — Here it could designate highly centralized republic.
Republic — Here synonymous with a federal republic.
Democracy — Here a participatory democracy constituted as a confederation.

Anyway, I've been giving the idea about each alien race having its own set of systems and values some more thought. Prokonsul Piotrus linked an article he wrote for the Wikipedia on the gov't thread and it is very interesting and helpful because it listed so many different gov't types.

Truly 'alien' forms of government will require more thought than those that are roughly equivalent to their human counterparts. For example, the Klingon High Council really isn't much different than parliament, after all. But an 'alien-sounding' name might be applied. Because the Klingons are so obsessed with 'honor,' I think Timocracy would be appropriate. But how might crystaline creatures interact, and what factors might be involved in their sociology?

Perhaps we could divide — for the sake of discussion only — governments into three categories, and then list each accordingly.

1. The Tyrannical Series (one-ruler)
2. The Oligarchic Series (government by a few)
3. The Democratic Series (government by the people)

Also, some races might have seven or eight choices open to them, some from each of the different categories, but other races might have only a couple of options due to some 'biological imperative' that does not allow for it, such as with a hive-minded race.

One last thing, I was thinking some values that appear in one category for one race might appear in another category for another. (Ex.: Eudaemonia, lit. 'the good life,' might be in the labor policy sub-category for a race that has a remarkable work ethic, but for another race it might appear in their domestic ethos list, as it signifies the rational search for happiness, and not necessarily through labor.)

Oh, one last thing, Hedonism might be counterposed to Eudaemonia, as it too is the search for happiness/pleasure, but is more whimsical. It is the 'unexamined' search for pleasure.

Thanks again.

Peter Kirby
Space Krill
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:12 am

#17 Post by Peter Kirby »

Impaler wrote:Here is my list, I have tried to inculde as many of the ideas mentioned so far as possible. I am aiming for 8 choices in each catagory and for their to be a great deal of diversity.

Goverment

Despotism - Any system with a single comanding individual who has little constraints on his power, he could be cruel or benevilent. This type of govermetn will periodicaly experience empire wide chaos when the old leader dies and a new one is chossen/fought over.

Republic - Any system with a strong representative central Legislature, they might be elected. Their were some very nice ideas a thread back about the "Senate" giving the player a Budjet that they need to stay within. That would be a great effect for this choice.

Consensus - A goverment underwitch all members have an equal voice and all desisions are made by a consensus representing the median opinion of all. Under this gov your restricted from perforiming actions that public opinion dose not support.

Anarchy - Often called Dispersed under previous threads, this is a total lack of the consept of govermental athority. Each individual is completly left to their own device, coperation is completly voluntary and temprary. A race like this is very hard to control.

Hive - A Hive goverment is run on Instinct, "leaders" are just as thoughtless as their sugjects and make desisions on instinct. A hive goverment is very stable but predictable and unimaginative. A hive will make great self sacrafices when nessary.

Conglomerate - A conglomerated goverment is a coalition of specialized sub-groups each with a very destinct and focused purpose. Each group keeps to its own tasks without any centralized leadership. All groupings in this kind of society are specialized and indipendent. Everyone is expected to handle their own sphere of influence without oversight.

Confederacy - A confederacy has a weak central goverment that strives to keep the individual portions from being opressed. Confederacies are often subject to break-up inwhich planets declared themselves independent when unhappy.



Legal

Aristocratic - This society is held together by the leadership of older respected individuals who form a kind of nobility. It is not nessarily a hereditary one though. Laws are enforced by these elites.

Thought-Control - 1984, all members of society have been brainwashed to the point of being unable to defiy the goverments mandates. Considerable resistence to spying and subversion is also implanted.

Coruption - A corupt Legal system is based on self gain, all laws are enforced or not enforced because of the gain involved. Hero characters and the like are easier to recruit and pay for due to the insentives of holding office. However the populace is far from happy.

Honor - An honor based society enforces laws through a strict code of honor, dishonor is worse then death in such a society (Klingons). Population is harder to assimilate under this type of society and warriors are braver.

Judicial - A judicial society enforces laws with a system of judges, courts and juries. Ofenders are punished in some mannor and this keeps the rest inline. Judicial societies experience a "justice" cost that incresses as the population gets angry. It is offten cheaper to spend money on Luxuries to passify the population then incure the justice costs.

Logical - A logical society obeys the mandates of its society because they see the value in doing so. Such societies are quite peacefull to a fault, the populace can not be rallied into a frenzy for political purposes.


Economics

Gift - A Gift economy reverses the normal transaction of cash based societies. In this system Producers give away their production as a gift to consumers. The consumer is indepted to the producer and is expected to repay in the future. This relation extends to the goverment as well. Each turn the player recives a random "gift" of some moderate value (size incresses through game to remain proportional) such as a pile of money, a space ship, a facility ect ect. Conversly the player can scrap items to temporarily incresse the happyness of a planet.

Lasie-Fare - Unregulated Capitalist Robber-barrons run this economy and provide incressed cash flow for the player, but over-expantion leads to busts as well as booms (random events greatly incressing and decressing production respectivly). Facilities and ships may be scraped in Busts as well.

Planned - A Planned economy taxes heavily and redistricutes wealth to the lower classes. Goverment planning is used to alocate all resorces. As a result the population is more contented but often less productive and efficienty.

Barter - A barter based economy does not have a well defined monetary unit, "money" is instead a colection of high value density objects that have a value only due to tradability. This structure keeps down any large acumulation of wealth as price fluctuations destroy wealth too easily. To reflect this the players cash reserves fluctuate every turn being multiplied by -50% to +50% randomly. A great deal of money can be made and lost in this way. In addition basic resorces can be sold for cash.

Fudal - A fudal economy focuses on self sufficiency by creating self sufficient "cells" of economic activity, trade between cells consists only of the most rare and difficult to produce items. Because of this self sufficiency orientation the player must maintain atleast one Mixed Focus at all time (either primary or secondary). Planets are harder to Blockade under a Fudal system and population migration is low as well.

Syndicate - Under a Syndicate property is owned by though who use it on a daily basis. Because of this expantion of the infastructure is slower then normal but maintance is lower (people take good care of stuff when they own it).


Labor

Caste - Any system in which workers do not choose their tasks, they could be Biologicaly designed, subliminaly trained ect ect. The high degree of specialization makes the work force more productive but inhibits any change in work alocation (workers must be laboriously retrained/hatched).

Wage - A wage system pays workers for their work and the worker choose to accept of decline work for a particualar wage (if a wage system becomes so coersive that the worked realy has no choice then it becomes a Forced labor system). Because work is money driven projects can be accelerated at the cost of money.

Eudimonia - Workers work entirely for their own self fuffilment under Eudimonia, work cant be accelerated by the goverment. On the other hand science is far more creative and Secret Projects/Wonders because of their uniqueness inspire faster work.

Forced - a forces labor system extracts its work from the worker like blood from a stone and as a result population are quite unhappy. Work can be accelerated by working them to death (convert pop into production) just like Civ 3.

Vasal - A vasal system involves workers being sworn to a master (either an oath or in more advanced societies a contract). Benifits are provided rather then money and the relationship is longterm but not lifelong. Workers can shop around for better deals.

Faith - Society is motivated to serve an incorporeal "greater goal" often involving one or more dieties and a purposed afterlife. A Faith based labor system can move mountains when properly motivated. Such a society can declare "Holy War" the highest most deadly state of war, production is greatly incressed but at considerable long term cost. Only military goods can be produced and the population is bloodthirsty for action against the victim race.
I was thinking about a few games and the way they modeled the "values" of a society. For example, Medieval: Total War kept track of religion (Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim or Jewish, Pagan, Heretic), along with missionaries for the former three. What I would suggest is this:

For each planet, a matrix of "Values" is tracked (generated at founding based on the race and social programming types of the founder):

VALUE: DECISION-MAKING
Selfish--People are looking out for number one.
Considerate--People are thinking of others or a higher principle.

VALUE: KNOWLEDGE-GATHERING
Autonomous--People want liberty of self and thought.
Dependent--People need to be managed externally and instructed.

VALUE: MOTIVATION
Easygoing--People concern themselves most with their personal lives.
Fanatic--People are devoted to a cause.

This could be called a planets SCADEF index: A planet could be 90% Selfish (10% Considerate), 50% Autonomous (50% Dependent), and 100% Easygoing (0% Fanatic), for example.

What's the point? Well, a planet that is out of alignment with your society's social programming choices is more likely to have rebellions and/or defect to a more like-minded government. If a whole empire is dangerously out of alignment with the government's dictates, there is the chance of a revolution (new government choices picked by the populace and damage to the capital planet and 2-3 other large ones) or civil war (empire is split into two empires, one aligned with the current social programming choices [you] and the other one a new AI player that starts at war with you). Revolution or civil war would be preceded by two warning prompts from the cabinet/advisor to consider appeasing the populace with society changes or increasing the funding for your activists (see below).

The only good thing about a revolution or civil war is that your empire is afterward set strongly in favor of your social programming choices (and you get new choices in a revolution). The two good things about having values in alignment with your social programming choices is that they are less likely to rebel/defect and that planets in very good alignment get a modest bonus to something, based on what the alignment is. The bad thing is that money must be spent on activists in order to "convert" conquered planets and prevent subversion of existing planets (I suggest a global setting instead of individual units being used). The good thing is that you can fund your own activists in enemy empires, assuming that they can be heared at all and that they don't get arrested or executed (which they would if the opponent has a tough-nut social programming selection or spends money on counter-espionage).

Here are the alignments of the above social programming picks:
Peter Kirby editing Impaler wrote:Here is my list, I have tried to inculde as many of the ideas mentioned so far as possible. I am aiming for 8 choices in each catagory and for their to be a great deal of diversity.

Goverment

Despotism - Any system with a single comanding individual who has little constraints on his power, he could be cruel or benevilent. This type of govermetn will periodicaly experience empire wide chaos when the old leader dies and a new one is chossen/fought over.

ALIGNMENT
Autonomous: Antithetical
Dependent: Congruous


Republic - Any system with a strong representative central Legislature, they might be elected. Their were some very nice ideas a thread back about the "Senate" giving the player a Budjet that they need to stay within. That would be a great effect for this choice.

Autonomous: Congruous
Dependent: Antithetical


Consensus - A goverment underwitch all members have an equal voice and all desisions are made by a consensus representing the median opinion of all. Under this gov your restricted from perforiming actions that public opinion dose not support.

Autonomous: Congruous
Dependent: Antithetical


Anarchy - Often called Dispersed under previous threads, this is a total lack of the consept of govermental athority. Each individual is completly left to their own device, coperation is completly voluntary and temprary. A race like this is very hard to control.

Autonomous: Extremely Congruous
Dependent: Extremely Antithetical
(It's harder to get the support needed for the Alignment bonus for extreme: something like 95% as opposed to 80%. Also, it's easier to slip below the "revolt-safe" minimum: something like 50% support as opposed to 20%.)


Hive - A Hive goverment is run on Instinct, "leaders" are just as thoughtless as their sugjects and make desisions on instinct. A hive goverment is very stable but predictable and unimaginative. A hive will make great self sacrafices when nessary.

Autonomous: Extremely Antithetical
Dependent: Extremely Congruous


Conglomerate - A conglomerated goverment is a coalition of specialized sub-groups each with a very destinct and focused purpose. Each group keeps to its own tasks without any centralized leadership. All groupings in this kind of society are specialized and indipendent. Everyone is expected to handle their own sphere of influence without oversight.

Autonomous: Congruous
Easygoing: Slightly congruous
Fanatic: Slightly antithetical
Dependent: Antithetical
(For "slightly," the minimums are low: 5% to be safe from revolt, 50% to get the bonus.)


Confederacy - A confederacy has a weak central goverment that strives to keep the individual portions from being opressed. Confederacies are often subject to break-up inwhich planets declared themselves independent when unhappy.

Easygoing: Congruous
Fanatic: Antithetical
Autonomous: Congruous
Dependent: Antithetical


Legal

Aristocratic - This society is held together by the leadership of older respected individuals who form a kind of nobility. It is not nessarily a hereditary one though. Laws are enforced by these elites.

Autonomous: Slightly antithetical
Dependent: Slightly congruous


Thought-Control - 1984, all members of society have been brainwashed to the point of being unable to defiy the goverments mandates. Considerable resistence to spying and subversion is also implanted.

Selfish: slightly congruous
Considerate: slightly antithetical
Autonomous: Extremely antithetical
Dependent: Extremely congruous
Easygoing: slighly congruous
Fanatic: slightly antithetical
(considerable restrictions to balance the power of this gov't choice, and to reflect the extremity of it)


Coruption - A corupt Legal system is based on self gain, all laws are enforced or not enforced because of the gain involved. Hero characters and the like are easier to recruit and pay for due to the insentives of holding office. However the populace is far from happy.

Selfish: extremely congruous
Considerate: extremely antithetical


Honor - An honor based society enforces laws through a strict code of honor, dishonor is worse then death in such a society (Klingons). Population is harder to assimilate under this type of society and warriors are braver.

Selfish: Antithetical
Considerate: Congruous
Autonomous: Antithetical
Dependent: Congruous
Easygoing: Slightly antithetical
Fanatic: Slightly congruous


Judicial - A judicial society enforces laws with a system of judges, courts and juries. Ofenders are punished in some mannor and this keeps the rest inline. Judicial societies experience a "justice" cost that incresses as the population gets angry. It is offten cheaper to spend money on Luxuries to passify the population then incure the justice costs.

Selfish: Slightly antithetical
Considerate: Slightly congruous
(sounds like a weak, but stable, choice--give it low requirements)


Logical - A logical society obeys the mandates of its society because they see the value in doing so. Such societies are quite peacefull to a fault, the populace can not be rallied into a frenzy for political purposes.

Easygoing: Congruous
Fanatic: Antithetical


Economics

Gift - A Gift economy reverses the normal transaction of cash based societies. In this system Producers give away their production as a gift to consumers. The consumer is indepted to the producer and is expected to repay in the future. This relation extends to the goverment as well. Each turn the player recives a random "gift" of some moderate value (size incresses through game to remain proportional) such as a pile of money, a space ship, a facility ect ect. Conversly the player can scrap items to temporarily incresse the happyness of a planet.

Selfish: Extremely antithetical
Considerate: Extremely congruous


Lasie-Fare - Unregulated Capitalist Robber-barrons run this economy and provide incressed cash flow for the player, but over-expantion leads to busts as well as booms (random events greatly incressing and decressing production respectivly). Facilities and ships may be scraped in Busts as well.

Selfish: Congruous
Considerate: Antithetical


Planned - A Planned economy taxes heavily and redistricutes wealth to the lower classes. Goverment planning is used to alocate all resorces. As a result the population is more contented but often less productive and efficienty.

Autonomous: Antithetical
Dependent: Congruous


Barter - A barter based economy does not have a well defined monetary unit, "money" is instead a colection of high value density objects that have a value only due to tradability. This structure keeps down any large acumulation of wealth as price fluctuations destroy wealth too easily. To reflect this the players cash reserves fluctuate every turn being multiplied by -50% to +50% randomly. A great deal of money can be made and lost in this way. In addition basic resorces can be sold for cash.

Selfish: Slightly congruous
Considerate: Slightly antithetical


Fudal - A fudal economy focuses on self sufficiency by creating self sufficient "cells" of economic activity, trade between cells consists only of the most rare and difficult to produce items. Because of this self sufficiency orientation the player must maintain atleast one Mixed Focus at all time (either primary or secondary). Planets are harder to Blockade under a Fudal system and population migration is low as well.

Autonomy: Slightly congruous
Dependent: Slightly antithetical


Syndicate - Under a Syndicate property is owned by though who use it on a daily basis. Because of this expantion of the infastructure is slower then normal but maintance is lower (people take good care of stuff when they own it).

Selfish: Antithetical
Considerate: Congruous


Labor

Caste - Any system in which workers do not choose their tasks, they could be Biologicaly designed, subliminaly trained ect ect. The high degree of specialization makes the work force more productive but inhibits any change in work alocation (workers must be laboriously retrained/hatched).

Autonomous: Antithetical
Dependent: Congruous


Wage - A wage system pays workers for their work and the worker choose to accept of decline work for a particualar wage (if a wage system becomes so coersive that the worked realy has no choice then it becomes a Forced labor system). Because work is money driven projects can be accelerated at the cost of money.

Selfish: Congruous
Considerate: Antithetical


Eudimonia - Workers work entirely for their own self fuffilment under Eudimonia, work cant be accelerated by the goverment. On the other hand science is far more creative and Secret Projects/Wonders because of their uniqueness inspire faster work.

Easygoing: Extremely congruous
Fanatic: Extremely antithetical
Autonomous: Slightly congruous
Dependent: Slightly antithetical


Forced - a forces labor system extracts its work from the worker like blood from a stone and as a result population are quite unhappy. Work can be accelerated by working them to death (convert pop into production) just like Civ 3.

Autonomous: Antithetical
Dependent: Congruous


Vasal - A vasal system involves workers being sworn to a master (either an oath or in more advanced societies a contract). Benifits are provided rather then money and the relationship is longterm but not lifelong. Workers can shop around for better deals.

Autonomous: Slightly congruous
Dependent: Slightly antithetical


Faith - Society is motivated to serve an incorporeal "greater goal" often involving one or more dieties and a purposed afterlife. A Faith based labor system can move mountains when properly motivated. Such a society can declare "Holy War" the highest most deadly state of war, production is greatly incressed but at considerable long term cost. Only military goods can be produced and the population is bloodthirsty for action against the victim race.

Easygoing: Extremely antithetical
Fanatic: Extremely congruous
Based on all of this...

There are eight "extreme" alignments (2x2x2), where the populace is 100% one way or another. For example:

Autonomous
Selfish
Fanatic

Compatible government choices include Republic, Consensus, and Anarchy.
Compatible legal choices are Corruption and Judicial.
Compatible economy choices are Laissez faire, Barter, and Feudal.
Compatible labor choices are Wage, Vassal, and Faith.

Planet-specific triggers for getting out of range are rebellion and defection. Empire-wide out-of-syncness results in civil war or revolution.

It is possible to choose so-called "incompatible" choices. This will be easy to do if the choices are only "Slightly" in favor of one direction, manageable with regular preferences. If you pick "Thought Control" and "Anarchy," however, you are looking for a rebellion.

The bonuses are as follows:

Selfish + to the economy
Considerate + to morale

Autonomous + to research because of creativity
Dependent + to unsubvertability

Easygoing + to morale
Fanatic + to production

These are achieved on a planet-by-planet basis by being in alignment with the minimum requirements of all social programming picks for the bonus. The bonuses are modest.

I am of course looking for feedback and modification.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

User avatar
yaromir
Space Kraken
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 8:30 pm
Location: New York City

#18 Post by yaromir »

This is very good, I was thinking of something along those lines.

It would be good to have the State Culture, which is the culture of the homeworld. If the perifery ever gets too far out of alignment they rebel and declare independence, with like-minded colonies joining together.

The difference can be a numerical aggregate called cultural deviation. I would also prefer that values would not be such discrete steps but scales.
Not quite sure that 'selfish', maybe should be called 'self-centered'?

Such people tear down infrustructure just as readily as they build it.
Staying awake and aware is perhaps the hardest thing to do.

discord
Space Kraken
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am

#19 Post by discord »

ofcourse, there should be 'race mods' for how fara away from the 'baseline' is acceptable for the people, basicly how socialy adaptable they are.

all in all, a good idea, and a worthy one at that, unlikely to get into the game though, as 'complexity' is something of a bad word around here.

Velizar
Space Floater
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:50 pm
Location: Serbia

#20 Post by Velizar »

I agree, even if it sounds complicated. After all, a race would be willing to bend their core beliefs for only so long.
Sometimes, a man's heart is that of a wolf, and the path of enlightenment his alone to walk upon.

Impaler
Creative Contributor
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 am
Location: Tucson, Arizona USA

#21 Post by Impaler »

Why go to the difficulty of having these destincions of "Autonomus/Dependent" and other terms that dont realy carry much meaning in the game and skip strait to the Social Effect Catagories aka "Bravery" "Police Power" "Security" which have straitforward game playe effects.

You have a nice list of effects that could come from various choices but lets simplify....
Despotism - Any system with a single comanding individual who has little constraints on his power, he could be cruel or benevilent. This type of govermetn will periodicaly experience empire wide chaos when the old leader dies and a new one is chossen/fought over.

ALIGNMENT
Autonomous: Antithetical
Dependent: Congruous
INTO
Desspotism: +2 Subversion, +1 Morale, -1 Economy
A % based spread across 3 independent Axis would limit us to realy only having 3 areas for Social Effects, 6 different effects are listed as being attached though
Selfish + to the economy
Considerate + to morale

Autonomous + to research because of creativity
Dependent + to unsubvertability

Easygoing + to morale
Fanatic + to production
Realize that this means its impossible to have good morale AND productivity or to have good Research AND any resistence to outside subversion. Your choices are realy quite limited under shuch a system. A system like SMAC with independent Axis for each effect say a "Research" scale that only effects Research and a "Subversion" that only effects Subversion makes for a much more flexible and interesting system and alows for Social Choices that are more alien.

I do like the ideas dealing with Revolution and Rebelions. Mythinking is that each planet/system might have a "Prefered" set of Social Choices. Most of the time theses will coincide with your "Official Goverment Policy" ones but if their is a "Scism" (example your in Despotism but a Planet wants Republic) theirs incressed unhappyness. This Unhappyness can then trigger "Drone Riot" like events and break aways of planets.

This runns much along the thinking of "Factions" which were discussed a while ago. Perhaps a closer assosiation between Factions and Social Enginering choices would be nice. Factions could have preference for various choices as part of their various Ethos options. Their could be all kinds of things for Ethos to focus on, wars, trade, spending, domestic situations ect ect... Keeping your Factions (who are constantly changing their minds) happy and in balance with your external policies is a major balancing portion of the game.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune

moxy
Space Floater
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:02 pm
Location: Toronto ON

#22 Post by moxy »

i would suggest trimming some of the existing lists and adding more exotic options. some suggestions, while historically accurate, don't have the sci-fi feel of what i feel the game needs. dont forget that technology helps shape the social structure. once an empire develops the technology to implant cybernetic interfaces to a govt computer in its citizens, 'totalitarian' could take on a whole new meaning. or how would your labor situation change if you could genetically engineer citizens--shaped mentally and physically for specific job roles from birth? i would like to capture a few of the exotic possibilities that open up deeper in the tech trees. SMAC tried to do the same with its 'future society' options.
of course i think i'm right. if i thought i was wrong, i'd change my mind

Post Reply