Dead colonies still producing resources

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unjashfan
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Dead colonies still producing resources

#1 Post by unjashfan »

I have a hunch this is a bug, but I want to make sure first. Acrux I is somehow receiving the gas giant gen and micrograv industry boost.
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Dilvish
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#2 Post by Dilvish »

If that came about because you (or whoever) had a colony there that didn't change the default colony focus of Industry, and then the colony died off (even if on the first turn) then that's been discussed before and is considered fine. If the planet got there some other way, then probably not, we'd need more info.
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eleazar
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#3 Post by eleazar »

It produces for one turn after dying, or continually?
The former may be unavoidable, but the latter shouldn't.

I'm not sure exactly what Dilvish is describing, but it sounds glitchy and bad.

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Dilvish
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#4 Post by Dilvish »

eleazar wrote:It produces for one turn after dying, or continually?
The former may be unavoidable, but the latter shouldn't.

I'm not sure exactly what Dilvish is describing, but it sounds glitchy and bad.
I don't think there's anything glitchy about it, but perhaps it's a dynamic you'd prefer to change. Back when I was trying to figure out if the AI was able to apply Focus changes when it shouldn't, Geoff pointed out (as what I understood to be an acceptable scenario) that if a colony dies back to an outpost (say, by getting cut off from a Ki Spice Supply source or biological attack or whatnot) the planet could retain the Focus set by the colony, and could still get some benefits from that Focus, such as what's described in this thread. (The storyline idea being, I guess, that some of the machinery set up by the colonists could keep going on its own).

If we wanted to prevent that then the process that converts a dead colony into an outpost could probably also clear out the planet Focus.
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unjashfan
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#5 Post by unjashfan »

The planet in question was owned by an AI, so I wouldn't know exactly what happened when the colony died off. The AI in question was a maniacal one, so it's rather likely that the AI colonized the (hostile?) planet and the colony died off quickly before the focus was switched.
It produces for one turn after dying, or continually?
The former may be unavoidable, but the latter shouldn't.
It continuously produces resources.
...if a colony dies back to an outpost (say, by getting cut off from a Ki Spice Supply source or biological attack or whatnot) the planet could retain the Focus set by the colony, and could still get some benefits from that Focus, such as what's described in this thread. (The storyline idea being, I guess, that some of the machinery set up by the colonists could keep going on its own).
I'm not too fond of this mechanic. While it does make sense, it can be confusing to new players who might logically assume dead colonies would not be able to produce resources at all (possibly deviating from the KISS concept?). This mechanic can also be abused and is counterintuitive to the recent population changes to prevent colony spams on hostile planets (also makes bioterror a bit pointless).

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Resource output meters that are above their target meter drop by 1 per turn towards the target value. This applies whether or not a planet has population on it. There's no established rule that outposts can't produce research, industry, or trade, so it's not imposed that they can't.

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Vezzra
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#7 Post by Vezzra »

Geoff the Medio wrote:Resource output meters that are above their target meter drop by 1 per turn towards the target value. This applies whether or not a planet has population on it. There's no established rule that outposts can't produce research, industry, or trade, so it's not imposed that they can't.
Personally I'd prefer that when pop drops to 0, all current meter values should drop immediately to values that are only supported by non-pop based boni.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Vezzra wrote:...when pop drops to 0, all current meter values should drop immediately to values that are only supported by non-pop based boni.
That's a bit tricky to set up, and would be yet another special case situation to complicate things...

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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#9 Post by Vezzra »

Geoff the Medio wrote:That's a bit tricky to set up, and would be yet another special case situation to complicate things...
I know, it's just really strange to have a colony still producing output when actually no one is left there to do that. Not to bring the realism argument, but that's the kind of stuff that puts a dampener on "immersion"...

However, I understand your reluctance to hard code something in the C code just to handle special cases caused by the content scripts. That's generally a bad idea. Maybe that can be scripted within the effectgroups that give pop-based boni? When pop is 0, cut the current meter value down? I haven't looked very much into the content scripts, so I can't tell if that's possible.

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qsswin
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#10 Post by qsswin »

Vezzra wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:That's a bit tricky to set up, and would be yet another special case situation to complicate things...
I know, it's just really strange to have a colony still producing output when actually no one is left there to do that. Not to bring the realism argument, but that's the kind of stuff that puts a dampener on "immersion"...

However, I understand your reluctance to hard code something in the C code just to handle special cases caused by the content scripts. That's generally a bad idea. Maybe that can be scripted within the effectgroups that give pop-based boni? When pop is 0, cut the current meter value down? I haven't looked very much into the content scripts, so I can't tell if that's possible.
I don't really think this is so much of a problem. All meters, no matter what progress slowly back toward the target. There are many time when this doesn't necessarily make sense, but it happens anyway. It seems strange to make an exception in the game rules for this specific case.

IMO, the bigger problem here is that the boni from the focus still apply but you can't change the focus. It seems annoying and unfair, not to mention encouraging of spamming the whole galaxy with colonies that then decay into outposts. Either allow changing the focus, or clear it upon loss of all population.

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em3
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#11 Post by em3 »

qsswin wrote:Either allow changing the focus, or clear it upon loss of all population.
This.

Edit: I realise this poses a slight problem when you re-populate the planet and expect the focus to be the same as it was before it died out. Also some content scripts could possible maybe kind of benefit from varying foci on outposts.
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unjashfan
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#12 Post by unjashfan »

not to mention encouraging of spamming the whole galaxy with colonies that then decay into outposts.
Exactly what I'm worried about. I couldn't agree more.

---
The fact that outposts/dead colonies have no foci makes me think that there is more of a reason to force all outposts/dead colonies to produce 0 resources. In the case of gas giant generator and microgravity industry, they require planets to be in industry focus to receive the bonuses. Since outposts/dead colonies don't have a focus, it makes no sense that they are still producing resources, and it's just a recipe for confusion. The only tech that I can think of that can justify production on outposts/dead colonies would be self-adaptive automation.

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Vezzra
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#13 Post by Vezzra »

qsswin wrote:I don't really think this is so much of a problem. All meters, no matter what progress slowly back toward the target. There are many time when this doesn't necessarily make sense, but it happens anyway. It seems strange to make an exception in the game rules for this specific case.
It might be a matter of personal taste, but to me this particular case strikes me as a bit more extreme than the other ones I encountered in the game so far. I've never had a case (in regard to gradual meter growth/decline) that broke "immersion" so much as this one (for me).

The only other one that might come close would be the infrastructure reducing property of some buildings. When I build e.g. a basic shipyard, target infrastructure is reduced by 5 or 10 IIRC - once the building is finished. The explanation "lore-wise" for that is that this building requires a certain level of infrastructure to support it, and this infrastructure is then "reserved" for supporting this building. Which is actually a really cool idea, however, the fact that it takes the current infrastructure meter several turns to drop to the level infrastructure was reduced to by the building is very awkward. Actually so awkward that I'd like to find a better solution, because that too breaks "immersion" to some degree.

Of course we could just live with these shortcomings, but I can't help it, it bothers me a bit. These are no clean, elegant solutions/mechanics. It feels kind of "patched together", if you know what I mean...

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eleazar
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#14 Post by eleazar »

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Vezzra wrote:...when pop drops to 0, all current meter values should drop immediately to values that are only supported by non-pop based boni.
That's a bit tricky to set up, and would be yet another special case situation to complicate things...
Does this seem to occur with anything besides industry and research?

Actually i have some script in place added in species.txt when the evacuation building was, that is supposed to do this: (similar script for research) Why doesn't this do the trick? Is it failing because population might actually be 0.00000001?

Code: Select all

     EffectsGroup                    // removes residual production from a dead planet
            scope = Source
            activation = And [
                Planet
                TargetPopulation low = 0 high = 0
            ]
            effects = SetIndustry Value = 0
My objection is mostly based on the fact that outposts work differently depending on some non-obvious factor of their previous history.

Geoff the Medio wrote:There's no established rule that outposts can't produce research, industry, or trade, so it's not imposed that they can't.
I think that would be a good rule. It makes the distinction clear between colonies and outposts.

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Vezzra
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Re: Dead colonies still producing resources

#15 Post by Vezzra »

eleazar wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:There's no established rule that outposts can't produce research, industry, or trade, so it's not imposed that they can't.
I think that would be a good rule. It makes the distinction clear between colonies and outposts.
I want to second that.

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