Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

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OllyG
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Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#1 Post by OllyG » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:54 pm

Gateway to the void has a couple of problems.

Firstly the maximum population of other planets in the system is 0.1 (which to be fair is what the description says)
Gateway to the void.png
Not sure how to get the colonists here...
Gateway to the void.png (168.64 KiB) Viewed 1081 times
The other is that since when you hover over a planet it tells you that the stealth is 1000 you can be sure that there is a gateway to the void there - also if you are really observant you will notice it being built to start with.

If stealth is too high for you to see a planet, it would be better if it just said it is too high - not how much too high. A picture for a stealthy planet might be good, so you don't know if it is an inferno / barren or whatever. Instead of saying the planet is a small inferno (as stated in my screen shot) maybe just call it an unknown planet - like a system before you have explored it.

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Dilvish
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Re: Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#2 Post by Dilvish » Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:48 pm

OllyG wrote:Gateway to the void has a couple of problems. Firstly the maximum population of other planets in the system is 0.1 (which to be fair is what the description says)
I'm having a hard time understanding what you think is the 'problem' with what you've stated.
If stealth is too high for you to see a planet, it would be better if it just said it is too high - not how much too high.
That is indeed what actually happens. The screenshot you've shown is of you getting a tooltip on your own building, is it not? Not of you getting a tooltip on an opponent's stealthed planet/building.

The main problems I see with the the Gateway currently is that there is no counter to it. I also don't think I've yet given the AI instructions on avoiding it. So it's currently a bit broken for these other reasons, yes.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

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OllyG
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Re: Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#3 Post by OllyG » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:28 am

Currently Outposts have zero population - not 0.1.

The problem I have with stealthed planets is that you can tell exactly how much stealth - so you can make a guess as to what it is.

I think you need to give some criteria to allow the AI to make a guess at something being a gateway to the void. If it looses a fleet it should then 'remember' that a gateway to the void is there. After a random number of turns it could check again, with a cheap ship.

I've also noticed that the AI doesn't know how to deal with Psychogenic Domination. It needs to also 'remember' who it knows has it.

Both of these technologies are the kind of thing that makes this game different to other 4X games - we need to keep them and make other things which are very different to just adding more shields/weapons/production etc.

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MatGB
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Re: Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#4 Post by MatGB » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:01 am

OllyG wrote: The problem I have with stealthed planets is that you can tell exactly how much stealth - so you can make a guess as to what it is.
Except you can't. If you *know* what the stealth is the tooltip tells you, but if you don't know it just says "exceeds your detection ability" and/or "outside of scanner range". If you've found instances where that isn't the case it's a bug, but it needs to be stuff you can't see yourself.

You can test whether it's working fine for the AIs, rename the savegame file to .mps and load it as a multiplayer setting an AI to be you and you to be the nearest AI that shouldn't be able to see it.

If it is showing stealth 1000 to other players then there's a bug, but it shouldn't be (I never use the tech myself, I get what it's for but my preferred approach is to kill everyone quickly, currently, I keep trying to play a different strategy but get distracted and my revenge/defense/picket forces end up deep in enemy territory and wondering where the troop ships have got to)
Mat Bowles

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Dilvish
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Re: Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#5 Post by Dilvish » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:02 am

OllyG wrote:The problem I have with stealthed planets is that you can tell exactly how much stealth
I'm pretty sure it's a fairly small range of circumstances that lets you wind up with an accurate stealth reading that's beyond your current detection. The cases I recall are (a) if you are observing the planet when it's stealth gets boosted past your detection, like if you see Laenfa colonize it, and (b) if the planet attacks your fleets during combat in that system, which can happen if the planet owner has fleets in the system. I think in both those cases the result is ok (it's pretty specifically intended in case (b)), and of course the planet stealth could still go up. In case (a) I suppose that could also result in an empire knowing that an enemy's planet housed a Gateway to the Void and had stealth 1000, but that still doesn't make the stealth meaningless.
I think you need to give some criteria to allow the AI to make a guess at something being a gateway to the void. If it looses a fleet it should then 'remember' that a gateway to the void is there. After a random number of turns it could check again, with a cheap ship.
It's not so simple; a fair bit of change would be needed for the AI's travel planning routines as well. I think the Gateway is currently kind of brokenly powerful for its limited uses, what with no way to counter it, and is just part of the incomplete/experimental content of the game waiting for someone to fix or delete it. In the meantime spending time on having the AI avoid it seems a bit pointless, or at least very low priority. If not taken out or fixed in some other way, the script should probably be modified so that it only has like a 33% or 50% chance of destroying ships.
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OllyG
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Re: Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#6 Post by OllyG » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:24 am

My scout moved to this system and got instantly killed. I can see the planet even though the Sentinel must have killed me. The planet probably shot too which is why I can see it, but I think it shouldn't. If the monster kills me the planet shouldn't shoot. Making fleets shoot fleets before planets do would help here I think. No point hiding a planet if you shoot at every unarmed scout coming past! Also the planet has zero defence, so its shooting probably didn't do much!
Seeing 160 stealth with 10 detection.png
Seeing 160 stealth with 10 detection.png (261.04 KiB) Viewed 1058 times

Hihoo
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Re: Gateway to the void (and stealthy planets)

#7 Post by Hihoo » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:51 am

If the monster kills me the planet shouldn't shoot.
not exactly my opinion, but an option to disable planetary attacks could add depth
(wants to stay hidden no matter what)

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