Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

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Ophiuchus
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Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#1 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:10 pm

Discussion topic: Would it be ok if outposts get a stealth bonus from species traits?

Hi community, when playing hidden species I am often forced to build colonies instead of outposts.

This feels totally wrong - a colony should be much more difficult to hide than a outpost, shouldn't it?

I can think of many different implementations, some of them really easy and scriptable, but I'd like to know first if it would be acceptable if outposts get such a bonus.

One KISS implementation: calculate an single empire-wide stealth for outposts based on your stealth tech and the stealthiest species in the empire. Apply this empire-wide stealth to all outposts of that empire.
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MatGB
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#2 Post by MatGB » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:24 pm

I sort of agree, but I wouldn't go for the best species, I'd go for the species at the capital, just because you've managed to find some Furthest, Setinon or Lembala'Lam doesn't mean you can hide all your outposts. Alternatively/as well, there could be a tech specifically for outposts.

It is annoying when playing a species such as Laenfa that you can't colonise in the preferred way, on the other hand it could be seen as a balancing factor in that they are currently very annoying to have near you in the early game and I've expressed worries about them balance wise in the past (basically, play Laenfa and the AI can't touch you until way after turn 100).

It might be an idea to reduce the species bonus Laenfa receive and instead give them the first planetary stealth tech for free, that would help with this without requiring too much effort: Trith and Etty don't have a high enough starting stealth for this to be as big an issue.
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labgnome
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#3 Post by labgnome » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:26 pm

A few of things.
  • What about a tech (or set of techs) that increased outpost stealth?
  • Where in the code would this sort of thing be coded?
  • If I wanted to actually call owning the capital in something I write, how would I do that?
Namely because this interests me, and I've been thinking about some other things around this (who has the capitol) as well.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#4 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:45 pm

labgnome wrote:
  • What about a tech (or set of techs) that increased outpost stealth?
  • Where in the code would this sort of thing be coded?
Presumably you'd want to add a tech definition, probably in a new file, in https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... /techs/spy

You can probably base on it an existing tech, such as: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... 2.focs.txt

The interesting stuff is the effectsgroups section:

Code: Select all

    effectsgroups =
        EffectsGroup
            scope = And [
                OwnedBy empire = Source.Owner
                Planet
            ]
            activation = And [
                Not OwnerHasTech name = "SPY_STEALTH_3"
                Not OwnerHasTech name = "SPY_STEALTH_4"
            ]
            effects = [
                AddSpecial name = "VOLCANIC_ASH_SLAVE_SPECIAL"
                RemoveSpecial name = "CLOUD_COVER_SLAVE_SPECIAL"
            ]
You'd probably want to change that to SetStealth value = Value + 10 or somesuch instead of adding and removing specials. The activation condition would work similarly as that series of techs, assuming you'd have several similar techs that give different levels of stealth, but shouldn't be listed separately in the effect accounting tooltip. The scope would need an additional condition to exclude populated planets or planets with any species on them.
  • If I wanted to actually call owning the capital in something I write, how would I do that?
I don't understand the question.

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Vezzra
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#5 Post by Vezzra » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:53 pm

MatGB wrote:I sort of agree, but I wouldn't go for the best species, I'd go for the species at the capital, just because you've managed to find some Furthest, Setinon or Lembala'Lam doesn't mean you can hide all your outposts. Alternatively/as well, there could be a tech specifically for outposts.
This.

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#6 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:28 pm

Vezzra wrote:
MatGB wrote:I sort of agree, but I wouldn't go for the best species, I'd go for the species at the capital, just because you've managed to find some Furthest, Setinon or Lembala'Lam doesn't mean you can hide all your outposts. Alternatively/as well, there could be a tech specifically for outposts.
This.
@Vezzra Just making sure I read you right. So both would be okay for you? The tech idea as well as the capital?

I'd like the capital version - this would mean the place where you place your capitol will determine your p
laying style, it would also help the starting races sneaky species in a natural way.

We just have to invent other bonus depending on your capital so you need to decide between the different bonus... hm for example troop bonus on outposts would fit quite well.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#7 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:47 pm

labgnome wrote:... If I wanted to actually call owning the capital in something I write, how would I do that?
I think this is what you are looking for

Code: Select all

activation = Capital
Probably you would add this either to the species macros (using species bonus)

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... &type=Code

What I don't know is how to access a value from a stacking group

Code: Select all

stackinggroup = "SPECIES_STEALTH_STACK"
So if going for species bonus of your capital, one would probably hack it into the stealth macros.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... lth.macros
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Vezzra
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#8 Post by Vezzra » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:36 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Vezzra wrote:
MatGB wrote:I sort of agree, but I wouldn't go for the best species, I'd go for the species at the capital, just because you've managed to find some Furthest, Setinon or Lembala'Lam doesn't mean you can hide all your outposts. Alternatively/as well, there could be a tech specifically for outposts.
This.
@Vezzra Just making sure I read you right. So both would be okay for you? The tech idea as well as the capital?
Exactly.

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#9 Post by labgnome » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:55 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
labgnome wrote:
  • If I wanted to actually call owning the capital in something I write, how would I do that?
I don't understand the question.
If I want to script a condition based around species capital ownership how would I reference that? I haven't seen anything that does that, so I don't even know for sure if I can.
Ophiuchus wrote: I think this is what you are looking for

Code: Select all

activation = Capital
I don't think so. I've only seen that used to reference the capital as a location, IE: things that happen at the capitol. I want to create a condition that would apply across the whole empire based off what species was on the planet with the capitol. IE: If I wanted to set all outpost stealth values (no matter who built them) to Lafena stealth values, how would I do that? Or if I wanted to make all my Scylior happy that they now owned the capitol how would I tell them to do that?
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labgnome
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#10 Post by labgnome » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:06 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Vezzra wrote:This.
@Vezzra Just making sure I read you right. So both would be okay for you? The tech idea as well as the capital?
Exactly.
Thank you Kosh.
Image
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#11 Post by MatGB » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:35 am

I think, and bear in mind I'm a tester more than a scripter for a reason, that if you put the effect in the Imperial Palace script it should work, but also in the species script, because they activate per planet so if the capital has that species then it can then work on all outposts.

And Vezzra would make a terrible Kosh, talks too much :-) but it wap a yes to both.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#12 Post by Geoff the Medio » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:42 am

Ophiuchus wrote:I'd like the capital version - this would mean the place where you place your capitol will determine your playing style, it would also help the starting races sneaky species in a natural way.
Having the starting species be "special" in an empire is something we generally avoid.

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#13 Post by The Silent One » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:10 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:Having the starting species be "special" in an empire is something we generally avoid.
For that reason, I would also favor the outpost stealth tech approach.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#14 Post by MatGB » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:45 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:I'd like the capital version - this would mean the place where you place your capitol will determine your playing style, it would also help the starting races sneaky species in a natural way.
Having the starting species be "special" in an empire is something we generally avoid.
We do?

That's news.

Laenfa, Trith, Eaxaw, George (that's one of your recent ones), Etty and even Egassem are special and unique in many factors, Laenfa specifically are vastly different in starting advantage/disadvantage and I've been planning to work on a few other ideas.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#15 Post by Ophiuchus » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:41 pm

The Silent One wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:Having the starting species be "special" in an empire is something we generally avoid.
For that reason, I would also favor the outpost stealth tech approach.
This is not about the starting species. It is about the species at your capital. You can always move your capital, can't you?
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