Species Values Discussion

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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labgnome
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#16 Post by labgnome »

em3 wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 10:14 am Not a native speaker myself, but I don't think intellectual necessary relates to invention. Rather it's about studying, teaching and learning.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... tellectual

Maybe curious or open-minded?
I'd say that studying, teaching and learning are important to that, especially to research. I like intellectual, but if it's too confusing to non-native speakers then we can go with scientific. Curious might be confusing if we also keep explorer. Maybe keep lowbrow as the unhappiness/disliking research trait if we think superstitious has too many connotations for a species being able to get into space. While I like the idea of calling the disliking research trait "conservative" that might be a touch too on-the-nose political for Free Orion.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#17 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 11:02 am Ideally, Values should not be just "+50% this / -50% that". In most cases we already have that kind of traits in the species (industry, research, population...). Adding more of these will bring in neither new ways to play the game nor more fun, just more meter modifiers to pile up and make balance difficult.
So far none of the values work that way. They just effect happiness and possibly opinion depending on what your empire is doing. None of them provide direct bonues. Personally I' keep values restricted to effecting opinion and happiness.
Having a value should give bonuses and maluses when compared to not having that value, and aprox. inverted bonuses and maluses when having the opposite value.
Xenophobic, the only current one, really only gives a happiness malus and I think that's okay. That's why I grouped them the way I did. happiness generating and unhappiness generating. Also, I would like for species to have more than just one value, mixing and matching bonuses and maluses.
Values with no opposites (that is, you can have several of them because they are not mutually exclussive) must include bonuses AND maluses, otherwise we will always want to have all of them (say Scientific, Military Might and Development). If these maluses are seen as unfunny by the players, then there should be no Values without its opposite.
Firstly I would say that part of the idea is that species can have multiple vales, they just can't take both a value and it's opposite. So a species couldn't be both Gregarious and Xenophobic, but they could be Xenophobic and Warriors or Gregarious and Warriors. In fact I would like most species to have at least two values, maybe three or four. The idea, Ideally would be to mix happiness and unhappiness values with the each species.

Secondly, I would say that as part of this is meant to interact with opinion, having opposite values is important. Opposite vales are a way to generate negative opinion, which will make the player be strategic in their choice of species.
Expansionists: "Grow, and multiply, and fill the Space".
Bonus (moderate) to happiness and population growth on new colonies (put a special that fades away after some time?).
Cheaper (moderate) cost of colony ships and colony buildings.
Malus (small) to happiness on all colonies with maximum population (so you better build more colony ships, increase maximum pop. on the planets, eradicate neighbours to take their planets...).
I kind of like this idea, but again I can think of an opposite to it. You could have a reclusive species that does not like the idea of expanding.

Maybe instead of a special they get a decaying happiness boost every time a new colony is founded? I also don't think they need a happiness malus. Just having it as a bonus is fine.
Honest/Honorable:
Malus (small to moderate) to happiness when producing espionage or terror projects.
Malus (small to big) to happiness and influence production when breaking treats (declaring war on an ally without provocation: big malus)
Bonus (small) to influence production (when people is proud of their government actions, they contribute more).

Sneaky/Shifty/Devious:
Cheaper (small) cost of espionage and terror projects.
Malus (small) to counter-espionage (your people are easier to corrupt)
I like this dichotomy. I don't know how I feel about values giving a direct bonus to influence, or production or research for that matter. Xenophobia's production malus is more indirect. Also I don't know that it fits with the trait. I'd devious a bonus to happiness when producing espionage and terror projects. I like Honerable vs. Devious the best as far as names go.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#18 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 5:42 pmSo far none of the values work that way.
I assume you refer to how your initial proposal works. I wasn't talking about that one, but in general on how I think Values should work, and considering Eleazar's proposal.
Regarding your initial proposal, I don't see it as a definitive one (I mean, it does not work, at all), because it does not say anything about opinions on foreign empires, and because it has a set of values that only cause unhappiness (only penalise your empire, who wants that?) and another set that only raises happiness (so everyone will prefer such species), which is IMO inadequate (or at least rather unfun) for gameplay.
Maybe you'd like to present a more finished proposal that solve those issues? Meanwhile I'm doing the same, and hopefully the two proposals together, along with Krikkitone's clever insights, will suffice for a definitive Values and Opinions mechanics design pad that Geoff or anyone else could use, if he likes it.
Xenophobic, the only current one, really only gives a happiness malus and I think that's okay.
I don't think that's OK (and I'm a bit surprised that you think that is OK, since you, e.g., don't like policies having penalties together with benefits, yet alone only penalties).
Besides, as I already mentioned, Xenophobic could have benefits for its empire, such as making cheaper or easier to terrorise, exterminate or enslave others. So it would indeed have benefits and penalties that compensate each other. And I thought you liked that too.
part of the idea is that species can have multiple vales [...]
Obviously.
You misunderstood me, I was talking about the Values proposed by Eleazar, for which there were some without an opposite ("Values with no opposites", you quoted from me, so I wasn't talking about having xenophobic and xenophilic at the same time). But you can forget it, it isn't relevant, I think I can come up with a proposal that only has pairs of opposite values, so problem solved.
Opposite vales are a way to generate negative opinion
Actually, values without an opposite can also generate both negative and positive opinions (negative when going against the value, positive when honouring the value). But as per above, no need to argue about this.
reclusive
Good word, thanks. I had only Provincial/Homebody that seemed rather awkward. Although it might seem to overlap with Isolationists? (Thesaurus tell me that reclusive and isolationists are synonyms in English, and not antonyms for Expansionist).

Thanks for all the feedback.

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#19 Post by Oberlus »

Summing up:

We want (or need) ethical Values to simulate your own citizens/species reactions to government decisions. Thus, the mix of species in the empire will affect the government degree of freedom, but not necessarily determine it (that is, we don't want to force the player to use a single strategy depending on her/his species). Since Happiness is the intended meter to control things such as revolts, there must be Happiness bonuses/maluses for each Value.
Similarly, we also want Values to simulate the reactions of other species/empires to our empire actions, so that they might become easier or harder to influence. For this we will have Opinions.
However, we can give to Values more effects than just happiness and opinions modifiers, when such effects seem the logic consequence of having certain Values (e.g. the production malus from Xenophobic). I don't know if that is a good or a bad idea (e.g. regarding balance), and without an obvious argument against it we can (at least for now) consider such effects. We can do it keeping in mind that the proposed Values must still work if any effect (appart from those affecting Happiness and Opinion) is removed.

So I'm presenting here a possible proposal for species Values to affect species' happiness and opinions on empires, for discusion and improvement. It is all pairs of opposite Values. Obviously, a species could have one or the other of each pair but not both. And it could have none of the two (be neutral with respect such pair of Values).

Also, I'm not a native speaker, don't hesitate to suggest better words.

____

Expansionist/Colonialist Reclusive/Homebody/Provincial
Benefits - Cheaper colony ships/buildings
- Fast pop. growth (*) and happiness bonus on new colonies
- Bad opinion on other empires that stablish outposts/colonies
within your supply range
- Bonus to TargetPopulation
- Happiness bonus on fully populated colonies
Penalties - Unhappiness on fully populated colonies
- Bad opinion on its own empire if it stablishes colonies of other
species in planets inhabitable by the expansionists
- Expensive colonies
- Slower happiness and population growth on new colonies
(*) Ideally by taking population from older colonies, as with an inverted evacuation project

Wide empires will benefit most from Expansionist species.
Tall empires will benefit most from Reclusive species.
____

Xenophobic/Racist/Monoculture) Xenophile/Sociable/Multiculture
Benefits - Happiness bonus (*) from enslaving or exterminating nearby
colonies of other species
- Bad opinion on foreign empires that stablish colonies nearby
- Cheap diplomacy
- Happiness bonus from incorporating new species to the empire
- Bad opinion on foreign empires that enslave or exterminate anyone
Penalties - Unhappiness and malus to industry from other nearby species
- Expensive diplomacy (*)
- Extra unhappiness if its own empire stablishes colonies of other
species nearby
- Good opinion on foreign empires that exterminate other species
- Unhappiness from enslaving or exterminating others
(*) Even if they like you because you didn't kill any of them yet, you don't like them.

Empires playing aggressive and violent (military conquest, terror projects, enslavery, etc.) could benefit from Xenophobic species.
Empires playing diplomatic would benefit from Sociable species.
____

Cosmopolitan Isolationist
Benefits - Cheap trade treaties
- Happiness bonus from active trade treaties
- Good resistance to external influence
- Temporal happines bonus from breaking trade treaties
Penalties - Bad resistance to external influence
- Temporal unhappiness from breaking trade treaties
- Expensive trade treaties
- Unhappiness from active trade treaties

Empires playing diplomatic benefit from Cosmopolitan species.
Empires in disadvantage regarding influence (with powerful influential neighbours) benefit from Isolationist species.
____

Preservationist/Environmentalist/Convervationist Industrialists/Technocratic/Tycoon
Benefits - Lower influence upkeep of colonies (*) - Fast Industry meter growth
- Bonus to TargetIndustry
Penalties - Slower Industry meter growth
- Malus to TargetIndustry
- Higher influence upkeep of colonies
(*) They respect and use nature in a sustainable and eco-logical way, which means less returns but also less problems to maintain it.

Since we don't have Pollution in FreeOrion (and IMO that's OK, you can expect that a civilisation that isn't able to keep its environment healthy enough to last for aeons isn't going to last for long in the galaxy), I think this is not adequate for a Value, or not as interesting in terms of happiness and opinion than others: We already have happiness bonuses for Preferred Focus (i.e. industrialists would prefer industry focus, and are less happy when focused on anything else; preservationists would have any other preference).
Nevertheless, the proposed effects could be interesting for gameplay, if we think of this as possible species traits (traits as a more general characteristic than Values, in this case directly related to Influence upkeep).
____

Warlike Pacifist
Benefits - Lower influence upkeep of warships
- Happiness bonus when at war, or happiness bonus when
conquering a colony (*)
- Bad opinion on empires that sign peace treaties (stop wars)
- Happiness bonus when at peace (*)
- Bad opinion on empires that declare war (*)
Penalties - Happiness malus when at peace (*)
- Good opinion on empires that declare war
- Higher influence upkeep of warships
- Happiness malus when at war (*)
- Good opinion on empires that declare peace
(*) All this must to be worked out to make it balanced. What happens when you have several neighbours and you declare war on some and peace on others? Do the effects pile up and compensate? Maybe there should be just happiness bonuses non-stackable (so it's the same to have 1 war than 5 wars at the same time)? Many doubts here.

____

Honorable/Honest Devious/Sneaky/Shifty
Benefits - Bad opinion on empires that do espionage or terror or that
break treaties
- Greater resistance to espionage projects
- Greater resistance to propaganda when Happiness is high
- Cheaper cost of espionage and terror projects (*)
- No happiness malus from being caught doing espionage or terror
Penalties - Unhappiness if its empire does espionage or terror or
breaks any treaty
- Cheaper espionage on them (easier to corrupt)
(*) No direct happiness bonus because they don't advertise their wrongdoings among the population, but indirect Happiness bonus in that when they are caught their population doesn't give a damn, even if the "evil" projects were applied to its own species.

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#20 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 11:02 am In the future, it would be great (make sense, help balancing, slow down expansion) if creating a colony ship would reduce population on that colony. Currently, we don't have that because AI wasn't able to manage it (but shouldn't be hard to do so? @Morlic ?).
Personally i would prefer if we unified species growth on an imperial (or supply-route) level. In that case all growth of a certain species would be put in a pool and distributed to the other planets and colonisation projects/ships. So maxed out populations would contribute to empire growth and colonisation ships would not provide extra population for free. Distribution priorites could be set using policies (e.g. wide vs tall populations). Also population growth would become monotonic (no population reduction, only distributed growth.) Sorry for being off-topic, will probably put this in an own or more suitable thread.

From the suggested value proposals i like the one only affecting happiness because its KISS and easy to reason about (which helps AI). I imagine something like mostly local effects, e.g. local happiness gets influenced by colonies inside a three-hop distance. This means happiness problems could add up in crowded areas. So empires would maybe start to be organised in happiness-preserving sectors.

The current xenophobic harassment would decrease happiness of species which are not indifferent (indifferent species like the species in "Xeelee Endurance"). For this you check if there are xenophobic population of a different species inside three hops of not-indifferent population.

Also I do not think that those values necessarily need to be balanced against each other in pairs. Also happiness malus should be e.g. twice as high as happiness bonus are. At least humans are a lot harder to make happy than to make unhappy.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#21 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:50 amFrom the suggested value proposals i like the one only affecting happiness because its KISS and easy to reason about
Do you mean not affecting anything else apart from Happiness and Opinions, or also removing Opinion effects?

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#22 Post by Vezzra »

Gosh, guys, you're pumping out ideas and design discussion like there is no tomorrow - do you actually sleep sometimes in between?! ;)

Ok, one thing I think I need to throw in, because (after a cursory glance over the entire discussion here) I think it's relevant for the mechanics discussed here, which is clarification on the concepts of opinions/allegiance and happiness. There has already been a lot of discussion in the (partially very distant) past about this, and there has been some general consensus and decisions AFAIK:

Happiness != Opinion. There are three different stats that are tracked: species-species relations, species-empire relations (which basically is the same as "allegiance") and, separate from those, "happiness".

The first two are basically "opinion": the opinion each species has of each other species, and the opinion each species has of each empire. These are species stats.

"Happiness" is a planetary/colony stat/meter which tracks how content the colony's population is. It is not a species-wide stat. The happiness of a species on planet A can be very different from the happiness of the same species on planet B.

The challenge is to determine how these stats affect each other, because in reality they actually feed into each other. Your opinion of the current government (empire) affects your happiness, but your happiness in turn also affects your opinion of the current government. There have been various ideas been thrown around how to model this, and some actually worked with some kind of feedback loop. However, none of those concepts were very KISS (as far as I remember).

The value system you're discussing here would/could actually affect all these, the two "opinion" species stats and the planetary "happiness" stat (depending on the specific value, context, etc.).

You can see how this can get impossibly complicated quite quickly. Therefore I've been wondering if we should use "Stability" instead of "Happiness" (Stellaris does this) to track how likely a colony is to rebel, and just have the opinion stats affect "Stability", period. No feedback loops. "Happiness" would basically be included in "Opinion". But that probably belongs into its own dedicated thread (as if we haven't already enough ongoing discussions right now... ;)).

Then you only have to figure out how your value system is going to affect the opinion species stats and the planetary stability stat. An obvious approach would be to have it only affect opinions, and planetary stability would only be affected indirectly (via the effect on the opinion stats, which in turn affect stability).

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#23 Post by Oberlus »

Vezzra wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:04 pmdo you actually sleep sometimes in between?! ;)
42 hours a week, plus I have no children and my wife got a job 600 km away (some of my most productive moments are in the train back and forth).

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#24 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:01 amI assume you refer to how your initial proposal works. I wasn't talking about that one, but in general on how I think Values should work, and considering Eleazar's proposal.
Regarding your initial proposal, I don't see it as a definitive one (I mean, it does not work, at all), because it does not say anything about opinions on foreign empires, and because it has a set of values that only cause unhappiness (only penalise your empire, who wants that?) and another set that only raises happiness (so everyone will prefer such species), which is IMO inadequate (or at least rather unfun) for gameplay.
Maybe you'd like to present a more finished proposal that solve those issues? Meanwhile I'm doing the same, and hopefully the two proposals together, along with Krikkitone's clever insights, will suffice for a definitive Values and Opinions mechanics design pad that Geoff or anyone else could use, if he likes it.
Well we can always say that at least playable species has to have both happiness and unhappiness values. Just like I am not picturing species having only one value,I am not picturing them only taking happiness or unhappiness values. Also keep in mind all of these maluses are circumstantial. It's not like you can't do anything about them if they become a problem. Xenophobes can go around and wipe everyone else out and if you are pacifist you can avoid getting into wars, unified or reclusive species could just play tall, instead of wide.

Also negative traits are a nice thing to have balance wise if we are going to be customizing species in any way. It certainly helps add strategy to your choices.

I wanted to get feedback form people about the idea, and hopefully flesh it out more. I will have a more in-depth proposal taking into account the feedback I've already gotten here. So that is incoming. I am still in the process of brainstorming.
Xenophobic, the only current one, really only gives a happiness malus and I think that's okay.
I don't think that's OK (and I'm a bit surprised that you think that is OK, since you, e.g., don't like policies having penalties together with benefits, yet alone only penalties).
Besides, as I already mentioned, Xenophobic could have benefits for its empire, such as making cheaper or easier to terrorise, exterminate or enslave others. So it would indeed have benefits and penalties that compensate each other. And I thought you liked that too.
I'm open to the idea but I don't consider it a necessity. Also you can use the happiness and production malus to harass other empires. Maybe let pacifists generate a malus to troops on surrounding planets, and other similar effects?
Opposite vales are a way to generate negative opinion
Actually, values without an opposite can also generate both negative and positive opinions (negative when going against the value, positive when honouring the value). But as per above, no need to argue about this.
I was thinking of a much more simple and strait-forward way to generate opinion between species. IE: just give them positive opinion of species that share values and negative opinion of species that have opposite values. I wasn't thinking too much about species to empire relations. For that we would need to discuss how governments and policies interact with values. I think we should focus on how values interact with each other first then work out how they will interact with other things.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#25 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:55 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:50 amFrom the suggested value proposals i like the one only affecting happiness because its KISS and easy to reason about
Do you mean not affecting anything else apart from Happiness and Opinions, or also removing Opinion effects?
I would personally be fine doing just happiness and opinion only. However xenophobic already has the production malus. Not having other effects would make things a lot simpler.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#26 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:04 pmHappiness != Opinion. There are three different stats that are tracked: species-species relations, species-empire relations (which basically is the same as "allegiance") and, separate from those, "happiness".

The first two are basically "opinion": the opinion each species has of each other species, and the opinion each species has of each empire. These are species stats.

"Happiness" is a planetary/colony stat/meter which tracks how content the colony's population is. It is not a species-wide stat. The happiness of a species on planet A can be very different from the happiness of the same species on planet B.
I think we are pretty much in agreement here. Especially regarding definitions.
The challenge is to determine how these stats affect each other, because in reality they actually feed into each other. Your opinion of the current government (empire) affects your happiness, but your happiness in turn also affects your opinion of the current government. There have been various ideas been thrown around how to model this, and some actually worked with some kind of feedback loop. However, none of those concepts were very KISS (as far as I remember).
So what I am thinking is that values will generate certain levels of happiness depending on the circumstances on planets, while generating a negative opinion based on weather or not another species has the same or opposite values. The amount of opinion will depend on how many values we want to give to most species. Obviously it should be something large like +/-50, if there will only be a couple of values per species, but maybe something smaller like +/-30 if we are going to go with 3 or 4 values per species. No need for complicated feedback loops there.

The opinion of the empire could be set by adding the average happiness of each planet and the average opinion of all species in the empire, that way happiness effects opinion, but not the other way around. Specifically, given certain assumptions, I am thinking of:

Species-Empire Opinion = (Average(Happiness - 50) + (Average(Opinion(Species 1, Species 2, ... Species N)/2).
Assuming a range of 0 to 100 for happiness and a range of -100 to +100 for opinion.
You can see how this can get impossibly complicated quite quickly. Therefore I've been wondering if we should use "Stability" instead of "Happiness" (Stellaris does this) to track how likely a colony is to rebel, and just have the opinion stats affect "Stability", period. No feedback loops. "Happiness" would basically be included in "Opinion". But that probably belongs into its own dedicated thread (as if we haven't already enough ongoing discussions right now... ;)).
The second part can become more complicated if we want to include opinions about things like governments and policies, but I wonder if we should right now. Maybe just let them work through direct happiness effects and values-related happiness effects.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#27 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:15 amWe want (or need) ethical Values to simulate your own citizens/species reactions to government decisions. Thus, the mix of species in the empire will affect the government degree of freedom, but not necessarily determine it (that is, we don't want to force the player to use a single strategy depending on her/his species). Since Happiness is the intended meter to control things such as revolts, there must be Happiness bonuses/maluses for each Value.
We are in agreement here.
Similarly, we also want Values to simulate the reactions of other species/empires to our empire actions, so that they might become easier or harder to influence. For this we will have Opinions.
I am thinking that species values derived opinion should mainly be used for species-species relations. I am thinking that perhaps happiness should effect planet's influence cost.
However, we can give to Values more effects than just happiness and opinions modifiers, when such effects seem the logic consequence of having certain Values (e.g. the production malus from Xenophobic). I don't know if that is a good or a bad idea (e.g. regarding balance), and without an obvious argument against it we can (at least for now) consider such effects. We can do it keeping in mind that the proposed Values must still work if any effect (appart from those affecting Happiness and Opinion) is removed.
While I like all the thought you've put into this, however my biggest concern is that your proposed effects are overly-complex. I would think we want to keep this as simple and strait-forward as possible. Presuming we want to keep KISS. I am thinking that if we want to keep other effects with with values that we should go for a simple case of opposite values produce opposite effects.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#28 Post by labgnome »

So here is a more detailed proposal for species values. There are 14 pairs of opposing values for a total of 28, each having a different happiness effect. The values have other effects in 7 different area with 2 value-pairs for each area. I am thinking that each species should have 3 or 4 different values each. This will avoid the potential "planet of hats" problem as each species will have a different collection of values. Species to species opinion will be determined by weather or not a species has the same or an opposing value. None of the names are final and are there to at least be placeholders. I have provided some fluff explanations for the effects that go with each value.

Xenophobic and Gregarious
Just as xenophobic species harass and disrupt the production of other species, gregarious species will gleefully assist them.
XenophobicGregarious
happiness-malus from proximity to other species
-malus to other species in proximity
-bonus from proximity to other species
-bonus to other species in proximity
other effectsmalus to other species productionbonus to other species production

Isolationist and Cosmopolitan
Being near isolationist species makes it harder for other species to project their influence, conversely it's made far easier by cosmopolitan species.
IsolationistCosmopilitan
happiness-malus from proximity to other empire's supply
-malus from being in alliance
-bonus from proximity to other empire's supply
-bonus from being in alliance
other effectsmalus to other species influencebonus to other species influence

Coward and Explorer
Cowardly species fear the scientific advancements of other species around them and will disrupt their research,while explorers will share datat they have gathered in their explorations freely.
CowardExplorer
happinessmalus from exploration of the galaxybonus from exploration of the galaxy
other effectsmalus to other species researchbonus to other species research

Warrior and Pacifist
Warrior species are always seeking out combat and will lend out mercenary services to other nearby species increasing their troops. Pacifist species will always do what they can to oppose militarization wherever they find it decreasing the troops of other species around them.
WarriorPacifist
happiness- bonus from troops
-bonus when at war
-malus from troops
-malus when at war
other effectsbonus to other species troopsmalus to other species troops

Expansionist and Recluse
Expansionist species are always looking to grow and will give a bonus to other species stockpiling efforts. Reclusive species dislike the expansion of other species and will disrupt their stockpiling if they are nearby.
ExpansionistRecluse
happinessbonus from new coloniesmalus from new colonies
other effectsbonus to other species stockpilingmalus to other species stockpiling

Developed and Naturalist
Developed species are always looking for new supplies and will work with other species in these efforts. naturalist species prefer untamed natural space and are known to disrupt nearby infrastructure they deem environmentally unfriendly.
DevelopedNaturalist
happinessbonus from number of buildingsmalus from number of buildings
other effectsbonus to other species supplymalus to other species supply

Secretive and Open
Secretive species are apt at hiding from whoever they wish and can be enlisted to hide vessels in their system from scans. Open species dislike secrecy and will more readily report strange sensor readings than other species.
SecretiveOpen
happinessbonus from planet stealthmalus from planet stealth
other effectsbonus to ship stealth in systemmalus to ship stealth in system

Ecumenical and Proselytizing
Ecumenical species love to sponsor academic discourse between different ideas this can be beneficial to the research of other species. Prostelytizing species can be dogmatic and are known to oppose lines of research that disagrees with their own dogma.
EcumenicalProselytizing
happinessmalus from external propaganda projectsbonus from external propaganda projects
other effectsbonus to other species researchmalus to other species research

Honorable and Devious
Honorable species always keep their arrangements and often find themselves assisting the labors of other species around them. Devious species are known to engage in autonomous manor sabotage that disrupts the industry of other species.
HonorableDevious
happinessmalus from external espionage projectsbonus from external espionage projects
other effectsbonus to other species productionmalus to other species production

Egalitarian and Hierarchical
Egalitarian species believe that everyone's voice is valuable and will promote the influence of other species around them. Hierarchical species consider themselves superior to other species around them and will often disrupt their influence.
EgalitarianHierarchical
happinessmalus from slave planetsbonus from slave planets
other effectsbonus to other species influencemalus to other species influence
Although we don't have a mechanic for it yet, I wanted to include these values to round off the options.

Scientific and Lowbrow
Scientific species are always conducting extra observations and scans of their own system. Lowbrow species find such activities superfluous and often fail to make routine scans of their system.
ScientificLowbrow
happinessbonus from fraction of planets set to researchmalus from fraction of planets set to research
other effectsmalus to stealth in systembonus to stealth in system

Industrial and Conservationist
Industrial species are always drawing extra resources from wherever they can and thus disrupt the stockpiling of other species in the process. Conservationist species are always trying to conserve what they can and will assist other species in these efforts as well.
IndustrialConservationist
happinessbonus from fraction of planets set to productionmalus from fraction of planets set to production
other effectsmalus to other species stockpilingbonus to other species stockpiling

Customary (formerly Conformist) and Deviant
Customary species often dislike foreign products and their activities will often disrupt the supply of other species around them. Deviant species are often seeking the latest in exotic wares and can be a boon to the the supply of other species.
ConformistDeviant
happinessbonus from fraction of planets set to influencemalus from fraction of planets set to influence
other effectsmalus to other species supplybonus to other species supply

Corrupt and Lawful
Corrupt species will often send assassins after military and law-enforcement officials on other species disrupting their ability to defend themselves. Lawful species often will help other species with their defensive effort with supplies and training.
CriminalLawful
happinessbonus from external terror projectsmalus from external terror projects
other effectsmalus to other species troopsbonus to other species troops
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#29 Post by Oberlus »

Intensive job there, labgnome :D

Regarding KISS, 214 pairs of values might be a bit too many?

And a question: is this only to affect happiness (chances to revolt and the such) and not opinions on the empires (stuff for diplomacy and species-empire interactions)?


Edit: some seem rather overlapped in their effects (e.g. Xenophobic and Isolationists). Also they include effects apart from happiness (you changed your mind about that?).
Edit2: nah, not so overlapped, proximity to other species is not the same than proximity to other empires.

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labgnome
Juggernaut
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#30 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 7:03 pmRegarding KISS, 214 pairs of values might be a bit too many?
Well the idea is that species will be taking multiple values, I am leaning towards a typical number being 3 to 4, maybe even more for some species. This easily allows us to go through a lot of species and have no repeat combinations. As far as concerns about simplicity I went for a large number of simple values, rather than a small number of more complex values. I will say that if we do want more complicated values we should have fewer of them, but I am more concerned about overly-complex mechanics for values than I am for there being a lot of different simple values. Remember governments and policies are still largely an unknown with regards to values and they probably should interact. I have some thoughts on those as well.

If we really do think that this is too many we can talk about which ones to get rid of, or maybe merge together. However I think having too many values and eliminating the ones we want to get rid of is a better spot to be in than not having enough values to make the species in Free Orion unique. All of this is up for discussion, so the more feedback the better.
Edit: some seem rather overlapped in their effects (e.g. Xenophobic and Isolationists). Also they include effects apart from happiness (you changed your mind about that?).
Firstly, Isolationists get a malus from other empire's supply, not proximity to other species, and gives a malus to other species influence not production. Unless we want to make changes to Xenophobic, which we may want to, they are fairly different. Now in this proposal Devious, which gives a happiness bonus from external espionage projects, does also give other species a malus to industry.

Secondly, I took the existing traits of Xenophobic and modeled the others after it. I am still debating weather or not to include other effects. They may not be a good idea, however Xenophobic has the effect, so the precedent has been set. If we feel that we should only have happiness effects

Lastly, I did try to keep the same over-all theme of a single effect and that effect being indirect for this model. IE: instead of the species getting a bonus or malus (outside of a circumstantial one to happiness) they give a bonus or malus. This allows malus giving species to be used to disrupt other empires economies while bonus giving speices can be used to boost your own empire. However, with species that give boosts keep in mind other empires can also use them, and potentially "leech" off of their bonuses.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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