Thoughtful development, Turn 1

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defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#16 Post by defaultuser »

The problem is that you're trying to play a story instead of a game. The game is played by a player that learns and gets better. So what your species would know isn't terribly relevant.

And early in your game, you should build outpost ships. That's defensible from either standpoint.

Uriuk
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Goal #12: Outpost(s)

#17 Post by Uriuk »

defaultuser wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:22 pmThe problem is that you're trying to play a story instead of a game.
Ok, your note correct. Now this is not a problem, but a feature.
defaultuser wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:22 pmSo what your species would know isn't terribly relevant.
You proposed to wait few turns until scouting information will appear. So the story approach shouldn't bring too much damage.
defaultuser wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:22 pmAnd early in your game, you should build outpost ships. That's defensible from either standpoint.
Even without moving on the first turn, I already found bug/issue in the documentation. How I can trust the words of humans when they are without calculations?

You previously accused the planet’s leadership in strategic myopia. And because of this I want to develop some sound plan which can be verified and compared after it's completion against alternative plans.
I can calculate the cost of all ships in credits (Cr.), but I don't know how to do that for outpost/visibility coverage.

Currently nation have:
2 scouts (12 PP = 48 Cr)
1 colonizer (147 PP = 588 Cr)
1 frigate (45 PP = 180 Cr)
1 established colony (73 PP for established outpost and 53 PP for Human colony = 504 Cr)
Total wealth = 48+588+180+504 = 1320 Cr
This calculation is not complete, because:
- it doesn't include number of people on the planet
- it doesn't include an estimate of the number of known, observable, and controlled star locations
- it doesn't count planetary defence and garnizon
After establishing the second colony this value will fall, because it values colony cheaper than ship, and this is incorrect, because colonization should be favored instead of a penalized.

Is it correct to calculate the cost of population from the price difference between cryonic ship and plain coloniser?
8 RP + 300 RP gives 924 Cr for 2 additional colonists. So the population of the planet of size 20 has value 462 * 20 = 9240 Cr. Or not?

I have doubts, because this change calculations for the Goal "Population growth" (#10), and the ultimate effect may be the overestimation/overprioritization of growth over all other development directions.

Why established outpost is valuable? If it is combined with nest and "Domesticated Mega-Fauna" technology, then the price of monsters may be calculated. But how other outposts help?

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#18 Post by defaultuser »

Outposts are valuable because you can use them to start a colony. If you research Planetary Ecology, as I mentioned, you would be able to start a colony on any Desert, Tundra, or Terran worlds that you find. So likely that should be your first ship build.

The problem is that I can't tell whether you want to tell a story for us to read or if you are looking for advice on how to play this GAME. Let me know.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#19 Post by Uriuk »

I want to improve tactical and strategical skills. The game is a tool.
Story writing skills are different, they require characters, personalities, heroes and they deeds.
I don’t feel the wish to write this like a literary story. Adding these constraints about what the species know just adds a bit of fun.

Your advices are very valuable, because they can be converted into plans.
Plans can be estimated and become the base for calculations.
Calculations are necessary to make decisions.

Like in the book
1993, Wayne L. Winston "Operations research (3rd edition)" which was written on the expiriences of World War II.
4th edition is available - https://www.amazon.com/Operations-Resea ... 0534380581
but I have only 3rd in my library.
(UPD: found 4th ed. pdf in the internet)

You can think about it like about writing program for playing chess, or "go" games -
machine learning, alpha-beta algorithm and such things.

The Idea is not to finish the game as fast as possible, but to apply all known management tools and techniques.
That's why I added money as a two-sided tool/weapon.

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Oberlus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#20 Post by Oberlus »

Uriuk wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:06 amCalculations are necessary to make decisions.
The credit system is not good for such calculations and planning.
The value of a present action could be measured in terms of the future income, full of uncertainty.

Examples:

Outpost ship or colony ship? If you can use the colony ship right away, then it's OK, otherwise outpost ship takes way less resources and gets you extra supply range (conditional to the species supply trait and current supply techs researched).

Outpost/Colony ship or armed ship? If something is threatening you and you don't have enough army to counter it, then armed ship for sure.

Artificial Brain or Algorithmic Elegance? If you won't use research focus, then AB is way better. But it does not only depend on the immediate output after resarch/build it, consider also that they are prerequisites for different research paths.

The interdependences are overwhelming and no simple formula will give you ever the best approach.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#21 Post by Uriuk »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:04 amfuture income, full of uncertainty.
That's correct statement.
Oberlus wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:04 amThe credit system is not good for such calculations and planning.
This statement is UNRELATED to previous. Currency solve the task of unification of different measures into one scale. After currency's introduction, it became possible to compare risks of various ways of development including their costs, and uncertainty will/should reduce in future turns, as a new information arrive.

Uriuk
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Strategy of hiding

#22 Post by Uriuk »

To use planetary stealth bonus against AIs it is possible to research more hiding techniques, and build more colonies instead of battle fleet, until research will give more sophisticated weapons (like Self Graviting hull). Or use camouflage asteroids for some covert colony deployment missions.

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swaq
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Re: Strategy of hiding

#23 Post by swaq »

Uriuk wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:50 pm To use planetary stealth bonus against AIs it is possible to research more hiding techniques, and build more colonies instead of battle fleet, until research will give more sophisticated weapons (like Self Graviting hull). Or use camouflage asteroids for some covert colony deployment missions.
It is super easy to keep your planets/ships at a higher stealth level than the enemy AI detection. The AI doesn't prioritize detection enough (in my own test they didn't even get Neutron Scanner until around turn 170).

Are you still on Turn 1? I'm going to retire before you finish this game! :lol:

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Re: Strategy of hiding

#24 Post by Uriuk »

swaq wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:07 pmAre you still on Turn 1?
As long as I fit into the framework of the hard real-time mode (1 move in 1 year), I see no problems.

I will read your topic carefully. Thanks for pointing to it.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#25 Post by defaultuser »

I'm still not even sure what's going on here. I'm perfectly happy to talk about game strategy and tactics, but I'm not sure that's what you're discussing.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#26 Post by Uriuk »

Three questions remain:
1) what to produce
2) what to research
3) does it worth to use colonizer as scout
for this specific species in this specific setting.

I received DEFFERENT recommendations on production:
- 2 scouts (from swaq)
- outpost ship (from you)
- colonizer (mine idea)
- troop ship (mine too)
- warships (one of variants from Oberlus)

Given such different opinions it's hard to choose the only perfect strategy (but it definitely exists).

The same is for research, and for scouting.

Uriuk
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Spatial Flux Bubble Hull

#27 Post by Uriuk »

I start to think about "the way of stealth", proposed by swag.
This tiny hull is capable of decent speed over long distances due to the power of the Spatial Flux Bubble. It has only one internal slots however, and its max Structure is low.
Stealth starts at 15, is increased by 10 when passive, but reduced by 30 on any turn it remains in transit. Technology advances such as Electromagnetic Dampening allow crews to increase the stealth of the craft by 10 each.
Detection Range is medium and Speed is average.
Can only be built at a location with a Basic Shipyard and an Orbital Drydock.
Speed: 80
Fuel: 4
Structure: 19
It requires the following research:
Robotic Production, 24 RP / 3 Turns
Asymptotic Materials, 20 RP / 2 Turns
Spatial Flux Bubble, 24 RP / 3 Turns
Additional cloaking is costly:
Active Radar, 100 RP / 5 Turns
Electromagnetic Dampering (+10 stealth, 25 total), 100 RP / 5 Turns
Neuron Scanner, 400 RP / 6 Turns
Radiation Absorbing (+10 stealth, 35 total), 100 RP / 5 Turns
Sensors, 1000 RP / 7 Turns
Dimensional Cloaking (+10 stealth, 45 total), 500 RP / 5 Turns
Currently all other nations (except monsters) have detection 10, and after researching Active Radar they will have 30 (which requires Radiation Absorbing and one-step moves of the ship without "transits").
Scanning facility don't improve detection strength. It increases only "Detection Range".

If I want to achieve these goals I need to start research from "Robotic Production" and one other technology (may be even "Active Radar")

Research will require 68 RP and 8 Turns = 204 Cr
Spatial Flux Buble Hull cost is 17 PP and 2 Turns = 68 Cr / per unit
Outpost module cost 53 PP and 3 Turns

One of Ideas is to establish hidden scanning facilities in all the galaxy to gather more intelligence information.
But I don't understand how to hide them. Etty's already have -20 visiblility. And other species have 10 detection.
Looks like outpost with "Scanning Facility" (25 PP and 5 Turns) will be invisible by itself.
Do I need to research "Force Energy Camouflage" (250 RP / 4 Turns) to hide scannign buildings, or not?
Is it possible to build these facilities outside of supply lines?
What about building robotic colonies outside of supply lines?

Also I don't understand why "Monsters" tab in ship "Design" screen contain "Detection range" for each monster hull instead of "Detection Strength". The later number would be much more useful than the former.

I also have plan to use this hull as a carrier for robotic interface (to increase number of total fleet's robotic interfaces).
Robotic Interface 70 PP and 4 Turns
HullLine_Robotic.png
HullLine_Robotic.png (25.96 KiB) Viewed 415 times
UPD: But other players don't like this idea:
MatGB wrote: Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:14 amPersonally I don't find the interface to be that effective compared to a cheaper pile of ships crewed by better pilots, even with Etty
defaultuser wrote: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:25 pmOne problem, especially with Cray, is that you might build half a dozen then get a better pilot species.
Colony Pod cost 127 PP and 8 Turns
Cryonic Colony Pod cost 127 PP and 8 Turns

I am thinking of different "far" goals so early, because I should
Oberlus wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:04 amnot only depend on the immediate output after resarch/build it, consider also that they are prerequisites for different research paths
Last edited by Uriuk on Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:13 am, edited 4 times in total.

Uriuk
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Formula for the total empire worth

#28 Post by Uriuk »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:04 amno simple formula will give you ever the best approach
We have many teraflops of computing power in modern desktops (and probably even on modern smartphones). Complex formulas are also computable.

I think that score formula for alpha–beta pruning algorithm should be somehow related to game win conditions.

And I didn't found the list of such conditions in the game help.

I know about:
- overtake experimentor's outpost
- research apotheosis ("Singularity of Transcendence" scientific goal, 375000 RP / 20 Turns)
- kill all others

It was never successfull for me to win in alliance with AI, because I can't create alliance unlike to freeciv (don't know why).
UPD: found a topic about diplomacy - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10388&p=91690

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Oberlus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#29 Post by Oberlus »

Uriuk wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:38 pmwarships (one of variants from Oberlus)
I didn't propose anything, even less for your current game settings. I was just pointing out that strategic decisions can't be based on your excessively simplistic unified credit system (to which you disagree, and I respect that).

For your galaxy settings:
- 35+ systems per empire: that's huge, you won't run into any enemy any time soon, so no need for armed ships.
- high monsters and medium specials: plenty of systems will be guarded by monsters (so it would be suicidal to scout with colonisers and you might need armed ships soon).
- medium starlanes: plenty of path choices so better get more scouts.

I would build two extra scouts, and research the Alg. Eleg. and the Art. Brain techs first (in that order). On the third/fourth turn, depending on the availability of good or adequate planets found by the initial scouting, I would build the art. brain (nothing to colonise), and armed ship (monsters blocking pass) or another colony ship (2+ good/adeq. planets readily available).
Laser, better hulls (both to prepare against waves of monsters and later against enemy empires), habitability and more research boosts would be my preference for the research queue, in a variable order. The stealth path is also good against AI, but I wouldn't give preference to it.

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Oberlus
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Re: Formula for the total empire worth

#30 Post by Oberlus »

Uriuk wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:02 am
Oberlus wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:04 amno simple formula will give you ever the best approach
We have many teraflops of computing power in modern desktops (and probably even on modern smartphones). Complex formulas are also computable.
Yes, and those formulas would not use credits, but PPs, RPs, and the rest of actual variables of the game.

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