Thoughtful development, Turn 1

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Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#31 Post by Uriuk »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:08 amThe stealth path is also good against AI
But what about monsters?
MatGB wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:30 amdrones don't start moving until turn 10
Where to read about their (monsterships) detection strength after turn 10?

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Oberlus
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#32 Post by Oberlus »

Uriuk wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:11 am
Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:08 amThe stealth path is also good against AI
But what about monsters?
MatGB wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:30 amdrones don't start moving until turn 10
Where to read about their (monsterships) detection strength after turn 10?
Monsters do not invade planets, so planetary stealth is less relevant against monsters.
Being able to neglect the defence of your planets because your enemies can't see/invade them is very useful to free your armies from that duty so they can focus on invading the planets of others.

Monsters detection strength is equal to monster detection range, IIRC. If pursuing a full-stealth strategy (which takes a lot of RPs out from other research paths), you can neglect armed ships and focus on hidden expansion, with your colony ships passing by monsters undetected. But it may be more rewarding to get just enough armed ships to take down the monsters in your way and not delay military research. Eventually, against AI, you can only win through the military path.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#33 Post by Uriuk »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:24 amMonsters detection strength is equal to monster detection range, IIRC.
I think this (omission of strength) is a bug in documentation. Why monsters need range at all?
And they can bombard planets population, that's why i can't just ignore them.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#34 Post by defaultuser »

Edit: I incorrectly said 250 systems. I meant 150.

One of the problems (well not really a problem) is that various players will have their own techniques and therefore advice.

I generally play 150 systems/4 AIs, so ~30 per player. I have never bothered with stealth tech. My view is, the best defense against invasion is to have the military might to knock down their forces. With Etty, to me it's a no-brainer to research Military Robotic Control to build Robotic Hull ships with Robotic Interface Shields. But, obviously, not at the start.

My Research Queue for most species begins with:

Physical Brain
Planetary Ecology
Algorithmic Elegance
Nascent AI
Robotic Production
Nanotech Production
Adaptive Automation

Nascent AI and Adaptive Automation are flat-rate increases to Research and Production, meaning that you get the extra points on every inhabited planet regardless of focus or species. So you want to get those going as soon as possible.

I have generally found that it's not beneficial to build extra scouts in the beginning, although I did early on. I can appreciate the argument the other way, and it wouldn't bother me if you went that direction. The thing to build as soon as you can is the History Analyzer, especially for Industry-focused species.

I prefer Outpost ships over Colony ships, unless playing Sly.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#35 Post by defaultuser »

Colony ships are more expensive than the combination of outpost ship and colony start. The only real reason to make a colony ship is if you need to colonize outside of your supply. You haven't even used your existing one, and you have a species with supply bonus, so that's not that likely to be optimal.

Uriuk
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Space elevator as an early goal

#36 Post by Uriuk »

Orbital construction together with Architectural monofilaments can give +4 supply (20+150+80 RP and 28 turns)
5 outposts will take 37 turns to produce.
Space elevator (150 PP / 6 Turns, 15 turns actually, ready at ~38-th turn)
That may give +3 colonies in total (in addition to 2 starting colonies), all five will grow simultaneously.
After that apply flat bonuses to all of them at once.

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Oberlus
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Re: Space elevator as an early goal

#37 Post by Oberlus »

Uriuk wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:21 am Orbital construction together with Architectural monofilaments can give +4 supply (20+150+80 RP and 28 turns)
5 outposts will take 37 turns to produce.
Space elevator (150 PP / 6 Turns, 15 turns actually, ready at ~38-th turn)
That may give +3 colonies in total (in addition to 2 starting colonies), all five will grow simultaneously.
After that apply flat bonuses to all of them at once.
Try to calculate how many PPs and RPs you will have produced by turn 40 with each approach. Spoiler: you better get the flat bonuses and colonies ASAP, and not the supply techs unless strictly necessary for further growth.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#38 Post by defaultuser »

Supply increase is important eventually, but for most species (especially ones with bonus) it's not an early tech.

As Oberlus said, and I mentioned above, the flat-rate RP/PP techs are a top priority.

There's no real way to know what your colonization path will look like until you get out there. However, it's likely that you will find some Good/Adequate planets nearby that you can concentrate on. Given your species, Exobots will be a big help too because they can use planets you can't (Inferno/Radiated).

Uriuk
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How to improve research faster

#39 Post by Uriuk »

swaq wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:28 pmWhy not Algorithmic Elegance as a top priority?
Oberlus wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:22 am Try to calculate how many PPs and RPs you will have produced by turn 40 with each approach
Plan 1 (Algorithmic Elegance)
Turn 1..3, Research: Algorithmic Elegance (Research +2)
Turn 3..5, Research: The Physical Brain
Turn 4..5, Research Growth +2
Turn 5..8, Research: Nascent Artificial Intelligence (Research +2)
Turn 9..10, Research Growth +2
Turn 6..15, Production: Automated History Analyser (Research +5)
Turn 16..19, Research Growth +5
400PP, 611RP
---
Plan 2 (Automated History Analyser)
Turn 1..2, Research: The Physical Brain
Turn 2..4, Research: Algorithmic Elegance (Research +2)
Turn 3..12, Production: Automated History Analyser (Research +5)
Turn 5..6, Research Growth +2
Turn 4..9, Research: Nascent Artificial Intelligence (Research +2)
Turn 10..11, Research Growth +2
Turn 13..17, Research Growth +5
400PP, 622RP = 3466 Cr
Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:08 amI would ... research the Alg. Eleg. and the Art. Brain techs first (in that order).
Looks like you was infected by enemy's mental propaganda.
I need to check 2 more plans with switching into production focus. May be switching will explain that priority?
Last edited by Uriuk on Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Uriuk
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Plan without weapons development

#40 Post by Uriuk »

Plan 3 (Early planet focus switch to Production)
Turn 1..2, Research: The Physical Brain
Turn 1..2, Research: Planetary Ecology
Turn 1..6, Research: Robotic Production
Turn 3..12, Production: Automated History Analyser (Research +5)
Turn 3, Focus Switch: Production
Turn 6..18, Research: Subterrain Habitation
Turn 7..15, Research: Industrial Centers
Turn 16..20, Production: Industrial Center
Turn 18..31, Research: Symbiotic Biology
Turn 24..26, Research: Fusion Generation
Turn 32..34, Research: Algoritmic Elegance
Turn 35..40, Research: Nascent Artificial Intelligence
787PP, 356RP = 4216 Cr

Plan 4 (Growth -> Research -> Production)
Turn 1..2, Production: Scout
Turn 1, Production: Stockpile Transfer (4 PP), saves 1 turn for production of Automated History Analyser
Turn 1..2, Research: Planetary Ecology
Turn 1..2, Research: The Physical Brain
Turn 3..12, Production: Automated History Analyser (Research +5)
Turn 3..5, Research: Algorithmic Elegance (Research +2)
Turn 5..7, Research: Subterrain Habitation
Turn 7..11, Research: Nascent Artificial Intelligence (Research +2)
Turn 12, Focus Switch: Production
Turn 11..14, Research: Robotic Production
Turn 14..17, Research: Fusion Generation
Turn 18..22, Research: Industrial Centers
Turn 23..28, Production: Industrial Center
Turn 28..32, Growth: Production +5
Turn 23..30, Research: Symbiotic Biology
Turn 30.., Research: something else
768PP, 461RP = 4455 Cr

4PP costs 16 Cr, and the economy effect is 1 additional RP which is 3 Cr. It's better to produce something instead, isn't it?

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#41 Post by Uriuk »

The final order for turn 1:
Research:
- The Physical Brain
- Planetary Ecology
- Algorithmic Elegance
Production:
- Scout
- Outpost Ship
Fleets:
- Scout Fleet (down)
- Scout Fleet (up,left)
- Battle Fleet (left)
- Colony Fleet (up,right)

Building scout and outpost was not calculated well. Might be it was better to have 2 scouts, or the outpost only... Need to develop a better prediction model.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#42 Post by defaultuser »

Just for fun, and since I haven't been playing lately, I started a game with your parameters, and got the same map (at least so far). I will tell you what I do each turn.

Research Queue:
Physical Brain
Planetary Ecology
Algorithmic Elegance
Nascent AI
Robotic Production
Nanotech Production
Adaptive Automation

Production Queue:
Outpost ship

Moves (using clock directions):
Scout: 1 o'clock
Scout: 10 o'clock
Frigate: 8 o'clock
Colony ship: hold

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#43 Post by Uriuk »

defaultuser wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:40 amI will tell you what I do each turn.
You will spoil/disclose the information about the map.
And I will be forced to make moves faster than I will be able to think about them and related questions.
There is no problem for me to make 400 turns per 24 hours, but the level of thinking will be much shallower.
For now I wanted to dig into source codes, to see how that "Debug Dump" command was implemented, to create one more similar command to build galaxy approximation.

Uriuk
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#44 Post by Uriuk »

defaultuser wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:40 amand got the same map (at least so far)
You will have different location of nests, and different space monster's locations.
It's better to use Turn 1 savefile then.

defaultuser
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Re: Thoughtful development, Turn 1

#45 Post by defaultuser »

Uriuk wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:08 am
defaultuser wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:40 amI will tell you what I do each turn.
You will spoil/disclose the information about the map.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I will play at the same pace and will avoid most spoilers. I am waiting to initiate the moves for Turn 3 until you post.

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