Is it possible to build something on planets you dont own

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#16 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:35 pm

Oberlus wrote:There is no need for building stuff on planets you don't own (Unowened Building for short). UB does not fix any problem.
Your argument of nobody needs out-of-supply buildings, I read as "nobody needs colony buildings". Which is true, the colony buildings didnt add anything which wasnt possible. But they changed the game to be better, so they are a good addition.
Oberlus wrote:I...And I think you have not think seriously about the implication of this last suggestions.
I am not sure which of the suggestions you mean, please be more concrete. (I suggested quite some different things).
Oberlus wrote:Being able to claim a planet in range would be insanely OP: you can pass through monsters and enlarge your supply range at an absurd speed, because each remote outpost you build also gives reach to more remote outposting, snowballing.
I dont imagine it like you imagine it at all. So let me repeat: I am 99,9% sure we could add all the restrictions already in the game (e.g. for outposting behind a monster blockaded planet your need to be able to build fitting stealthy outpost ships; or for simplicity just disallow outposting through blockades) if we want to. So it would be just like outpost ships (without ships) with comparable time and cost efforts as for building a new outpost ship sending it there etc.
x2 its cost at least.
in general an outposting building must be cheaper than outposting ship to make the less-micro option the economic choice (see the colony ship discussion for the arguments in-supply).
even then I wonder what's the gain the game gets from it
Just makes stockpile focus slightly more useful and helps reducing some micro.
and how you will explain how is performed the outposting of the planet if there is no one in there to work (IS not only provides stealth means of resources transportation but also workforce?).
well it already means that i think. how much you can build with stockpile doesnt depend on the workforce of the colony at all. Building in-supply is also hugely massively unrealistic. The whole industry of the empire builds products on a single far away planet .. not very probable .. without entangled factories of course.
I don't like the idea, seems quite disruptive for what I expect.
I expect it would be boring actually, doesnt make anything new possible. Just makes stockpile focus slightly more useful and helps reducing some micro.
"Building" influence projects on unowned (or owned by others) planets is a whole different story.
Pretty unrelated.
Oberlus wrote:If all this brainstorming about building stuff in planets you don't own is to make stockpiling focus more useful I'd say you are killing fleas with bazookas in a glass house.
Maybe i'm bringing a bazooka to a gun fight :lol:
If you have smaller weapons available, I am all ears.

And then breath and read again what i wrote, please. I really do have the feeling that you got triggered and are overreacting.
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Dilvish
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#17 Post by Dilvish » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:34 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:But in-supply building wont help making the stockpile focus more useful.
(A) As I noted above, unowned planets are not currently part of an empire's Resource Groups even if they are in fleet-supplied systems, and so the IS could very readily provide the means to deliver PP to something being built there (sure, that would still take some coding changes, and it would be possible to instead code things to allow those planets to draw on a Resource Group, but I could see some good reasons to restrict them to drawing from the IS).
(B) if we were to allow 'remote outposting', building on an unowned planet, the primary significance of that would dwarf the significance of whether or not that made the IS more useful, and I would strongly caution against making the latter be an actual design goal.

I'll also point out that restricting this to fleet-supplied systems would not entirely exclude the Sly-- any system where they have a colony or outpost (even with a zero supply meter) is a fleet-supplied system so long as no other empire has overriding fleet-supply there, and so the Sly could still benefit from this in those occasional systems that have two or more Gas Giants.

Also, this line of thinking brings up the idea that perhaps the Sly colony building should not require supply-connection to an existing Sly colony, it should instead only require that the empire owns a sufficiently large Sly colony, regardless of supply connection. Without any other changes, that could allow the Sly to rely on outpost ships and the IS to colonize Gas Giants, instead of having to risk the super-expensive colony ships all the time.
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#18 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:10 pm

A) actually why is it that unowned planets are not supply/connected if the system is supply connected. at the current state of the game i do not see areason for that.

B) well probbly we want remote outposting to work exactly like outposting with outpost ships. just without hassle to build ships, then send ships somewhere and then press the build oupost here button. Beneficial side effects would be getting rid of outpost bases and another use/case for stockpile.
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#19 Post by Oberlus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 am

What about invading planets without the hassle to build military and transport ships?

Building ships to do things in a 4x space game is no hassle, is gaming.

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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#20 Post by Krikkitone » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:04 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Krikkitone wrote: except a colony building does not move a planet from "unowned"->"owned" only ships (outpost/colony/troops) do that
?? I am not sure what you are getting at ??

Before there were no colony buildings and colonization got a lot better by introducing them (removed lots of redundant decisions). Look up the discussions to understand what I meant.

And at the time Vezzras argument could have been made as a counter to colony buildings:
"I don't see why we should enable colonizing planets without ships. Build a colony ship, send it to the planet in question, plant it and there you are with your colony. If you can't do that (for whatever reason, planet not reachable, planet stealthed, etc.), you shouldn't be able to colonize there anyway?"

That anti-colony argument is as we know for a fact wrong. So I say this anti-outpost argument is similar.
When you build the colony building, you are doing it on a planet you Already reached with an Outpost ship. The idea is for the planet to count as "yours" you need to reach it with a ship either Outpost/Colony (or Troop).

After all instead of Troop ships, you could simplify micromanagement by enabling an "Invasion building" (where the cost depends on the enemy garrison on the planet) once complete, you win the planet. That would simplify micromanagement, but that would reduce the useful decisions to make. (destroying value of the map, etc.)

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Dilvish
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#21 Post by Dilvish » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:34 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:A) actually why is it that unowned planets are not supply/connected if the system is supply connected. at the current state of the game i do not see areason for that.
If you are asking why it was designed that way, I'm afraid I can't give you an answer (beyond pointing out that there was no reason to make it otherwise at the time); I think it predates my joining the project, or at least I can't remember it being discussed. If you are asking where is the code that makes it so, the ownership check is done in Empire::InitResourcePools().
B) well probbly we want remote outposting to work exactly like outposting with outpost ships. just without hassle to build ships, then send ships somewhere and then press the build oupost here button. Beneficial side effects would be getting rid of outpost bases and another use/case for stockpile.
That looks like waaaay too simplistic of reasoning for such an issue that would have such a huge effect on game progression/balance. I had started writing up this response but got delayed finishing it a couple times, so there have been some intervening responses already covering some of this.
But I think I still add a bit here, so-- As others have already at least partly noted, having to navigate an outpost ship to a planet, and possibly having to clear monsters from the system, is generally not just a "hassle", but can often be a significant tactical challenge, in which the challenge is an inherent benefit and also serves to help moderate the rate of empire growth. One's pattern of choosing which such tactical challenges to take on at a given stage is also a very significant strategic choice.

Of course, at some stage of an advanced game, having to do such repeatedly can get to be a bit tiring, and the proportion of situations where such task actually presents any interesting challenges versus merely being a chore also falls. That's the stage/situation that I think possibly opens the door to remote outposting (subject to significant constraints) being a useful mechanic. But any discussion of such needs to start with these kind of game design considerations (whether these particular ones or others).
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#22 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:31 pm

Oberlus wrote:What about invading planets without the hassle to build military and transport ships?

Building ships to do things in a 4x space game is no hassle, is gaming.
Having to do a lot of clicks to do things which have a minimal effect on game outcome and experience is a hassle in my opinion. If its parts of the genre to do micromanagement... then i simply dont care about that tradition :twisted:

Placement of military ships is what most of the tactics is about, so i think its goodness is beyond doubt. :)

Placement of troops should be actually more interesting if you know what i mean. :?
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#23 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:14 pm

Dilvish wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:A) actually why is it that unowned planets are not supply/connected if the system is supply connected. at the current state of the game i do not see areason for that.
If you are asking why it was designed that way, I'm afraid I can't give you an answer (beyond pointing out that there was no reason to make it otherwise at the time); I think it predates my joining the project, or at least I can't remember it being discussed. If you are asking where is the code that makes it so, the ownership check is done in Empire::InitResourcePools().
Thank you :)
Dilvish wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:B) well probbly we want remote outposting to work exactly like outposting with outpost ships. just without hassle to build ships, then send ships somewhere and then press the build oupost here button. Beneficial side effects would be getting rid of outpost bases and another use/case for stockpile.
That looks like waaaay too simplistic of reasoning for such an issue that would have such a huge effect on game progression/balance. I had started writing up this response but got delayed finishing it a couple times, so there have been some intervening responses already covering some of this.
But I think I still add a bit here, so-- As others have already at least partly noted, having to navigate an outpost ship to a planet, and possibly having to clear monsters from the system, is generally not just a "hassle", but can often be a significant tactical challenge, in which the challenge is an inherent benefit and also serves to help moderate the rate of empire growth. One's pattern of choosing which such tactical challenges to take on at a given stage is also a very significant strategic choice.
Yeah, I just dont see so many problems there as others I think. You would still need to research the right tech and get close enough; if you are not able to build an outpost ship which is able to fly and outpost a target planet alone without being shot down, you shouldnt be able to build an outpost building there. So you still would need to be clear monsters from the target system etc. Also building an outpost with stockpile is still a very risky business because it will take a lot of time and somebody else can just outrun you by blockading the planet (or the way there). Also its not so easy to get good stockpile, and it has extra cost, so probably for most empires its not an option anyway and even if you have fine stockpile, you probably will also build outpost ships to speed up expansion. And if we wanted to keep the monsters blockade intact we just would not use stealth tech in the reachability calculation (although i dont understand why its a problem to sneak building outposts behind the monster if you are able to build a stealthy outpost which would easily sneek behind the monster).

And in those situations where timing is key like you need to establish an outpost in enemy territory to refuel your fleet, I'd think the outpost ship is certainly the more robust way to go.

What i think misses for human players is a visual clue that an enemy empire is trying to establish an outpost somewhere.. Maybe a sitrep would suffice.

So i think the main difference between correctly restrained out-of-supply outposting would be:
  • the building is a gradual process, you only loose what you already invested; you can only build as long as you do not get blockaded, your enemy knows exactly in advance on which planet you invest in an outpost
  • the outpost ship is more flexible - you can change the outpost destination until the last turn
  • the outpost ship can be shot down by military and defenses, the outpost building can only be suppressed by military
  • the outpost building can be "shot down" by an enemy outpost ship or building
  • as human player you see a detectable enemy outpost ship on the map
So one could use outpost ships to defend yourself from enemy outpost buildings. If you have ridicously high amounts of stockpile you could hide your outpost target by outposting a lot of planets at the same time (so the enemy military could only blockade some of these buildings or would need to stretch out).
Maybe there should be another way to destroy the building process else there is always in the end an outpost on that planet.

From a strategical point of view: If my gut feeling is, right out-of-supply outpost buildings wont be a game changer but sometimes would open up tactical variants for empires which invest heavily in stockpile. For in-system outpost building i dont see any real changes. In-supply outpost buildings maybe would be more robust than outpost ships (because an outpost ship can be blockaded by blockading the lanes going there, but if a planet which gets supplied from two lanes it doesnt suffice to blockade one lane).
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#24 Post by Oberlus » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:32 am

Ophiuchus wrote:if you are not able to build an outpost ship which is able to fly and outpost a target planet alone without being shot down, you shouldnt be able to build an outpost building there. So you still would need to be clear monsters from the target system etc. Also building an outpost with stockpile is still a very risky business because it will take a lot of time and somebody else can just outrun you by blockading the planet (or the way there). Also its not so easy to get good stockpile, and it has extra cost, so probably for most empires its not an option anyway and even if you have fine stockpile, you probably will also build outpost ships to speed up expansion. And if we wanted to keep the monsters blockade intact we just would not use stealth tech in the reachability calculation (although i dont understand why its a problem to sneak building outposts behind the monster if you are able to build a stealthy outpost which would easily sneek behind the monster).
Looks like you already know that remote outposting should do nothing that stealth outposting can't do, so what's the point of adding remote outposting then? And if you are not going to allow building species-colony-building out of range of a supply group that contains that species, so you still need to get there with a colony ship in order to colonise, isn't all this idea about remote outposting a fix-nothing rather incoherent? Read between the lines: it would be less coherent if it allows for remote colonisation also, but then it will be in greater and uglier breach of FO mechanics. Looks like your love for the IS concept and implementation has clouded your reason...

That part in bold letter caught my eye. How do you plan to implement the new "blockades can stop planets from drawing PPs from the stockpile" mechanic? Wouldn't that just break the IS initial purpose completely? Would Sly still be able to build stuff on already owned colonies that are stealth within enemy systems?

I would say, let's forget about all this and focus on fixing the IS techs for the release without bringing new mechanics to the game. One thing at a time.

Or go for a simpler mechanic for the only purpose that IS had to had: delivering PPs between different supply groups to allow for distributed (stealth) empires.

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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#25 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:52 pm

Oberlus wrote:Looks like your love for the IS concept and implementation has clouded your reason...
What stylistic form is that? Boomerang ad hominem? ROTFL.
Oberlus wrote:That part in bold letter caught my eye. How do you plan to implement the new "blockades can stop planets from drawing PPs from the stockpile" mechanic?
This is building specific implementation, not a general mechanic. So the unblockaded would be part of the location condition of the outpost building.
Oberlus wrote:Wouldn't that just break the IS initial purpose completely?
No.
Oberlus wrote:Would Sly still be able to build stuff on already owned colonies that are stealth within enemy systems?
Yes.
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#26 Post by Vezzra » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:28 pm

Oberlus wrote:I would say, let's forget about all this and focus on fixing the IS techs for the release without bringing new mechanics to the game. One thing at a time.
You don't [edit*] need to worry about that. I think no one wants to add another big change like this to 0.4.8, I certainly would veto such a proposal (in my capacity as release manager). We need to focus on getting the release out, not adding even more stuff.

*(Gah, forgot the "don't", which totally changed the meaning of what I wanted to say... :oops:)

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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#27 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:24 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Oberlus wrote:...focus on fixing the IS techs for the release without bringing new mechanics to the game. One thing at a time.
You need to worry about that. I think no one wants to add another big change like this to 0.4.8, I certainly would veto such a proposal (in my capacity as release manager). We need to focus on getting the release out, not adding even more stuff.
agreed.

Even if everybody agreed to a solution i think implementation would be too big for the 0.4.8 timeframe

So if somebody has ideas for making the stockpiling focus useful, please contribute to What to do with the stockpiling techs
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Re: Is it possible to build something on planets you dont ow

#28 Post by Ophiuchus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:35 am

Dont want to open up discussion again at this point; just a reminder for me what kind of buildings or projects on unowned planets could make sense:
  • * outposting
    * terraforming
    * colonisation
    * trading an enemy planet for PP (owner puts up an offer, interested party builds the item cost, on finishing: old owner gets PP, ownership is changed)
    * foreign aid (using the existing stockpile transfer item for sending PP to a foreign supply group)
    * exploration/spionage (decreasing planet's or building's stealth)
    * jumpgate troops
    * support rebellion
    * sabotage (bring down shield generators)
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