Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

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Voker57
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Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#1 Post by Voker57 » Sat May 12, 2018 7:21 pm

Xenophobes (especially Trith) are excellent races currently which are supposed to kept in check by their xenophobicness. However, xenophobis maluses are quite lacking...

Let's take average two planets, "xeno" is industry-targeting conquered species' homeworld in otherwise "phobe"-filled sector

Xeno maluses are: -2.80/22 I -0/28P -0/4R
So, -10% for focus, zero problems otherwise.

Phobe maluses are: -0.86/11P -0.33/18R -0.45/5I
Trith are mildly annoyed, but nothing to build concentration camps over. Empire happily coexists.

I made a patch which adjusts these bonuses to something that actually encourages xenophobic gameplay and does not allow to just ignore the maluses. Stats:

xeno: -8.40/22I -6/28P -8.40/2R
phobe: -1.30/11P -8/18R -0/5I

Not fatal but quite crippling.
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Oberlus
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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#2 Post by Oberlus » Wed May 16, 2018 7:50 am

I like this alot. Something along this lines could be done in master?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio » Wed May 16, 2018 8:09 am

Oberlus wrote:I like this alot. Something along this lines could be done in master?
If there is a consensus that this is more interesting / better balanced, then sure.

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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#4 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed May 16, 2018 10:19 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Oberlus wrote:I like this alot. Something along this lines could be done in master?
If there is a consensus that this is more interesting / better balanced, then sure.
I think Trith are OP if not using concentration camps (cant comment on those - i dont use them). Not sure if the nerf is the appropiate one.

I guess the change would also need some AI work for trith(?)
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Dilvish
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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#5 Post by Dilvish » Wed May 16, 2018 5:51 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:I guess the change would also need some AI work for trith(?)
The AI xenophobe handling has already been a bit weak, and this would indeed make it probably severe without some further work. So far, to my recollection, the xenophobic maluses had been both minor enough and complicated enough (when trying to make projections) that the AI currently does not take them into account when planning outpost/colony scores. These proposed maluses sound severe enough that AI's with xeno species might wind up crippled without some adjustment.

It sounds like the appropriate next step would be to put this up as a 'Work In Progress" PR while we discuss and work on AI adjustements for it.

Voker57 do you have enough experience with this patch yet to be able to formulate a corresponding colonization strategy?
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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#6 Post by Voker57 » Wed May 16, 2018 9:53 pm

Dilvish wrote: Voker57 do you have enough experience with this patch yet to be able to formulate a corresponding colonization strategy?
Not a lot of experience, I played one game as Trith and had to choose between Trith and Mu Ursh (goodbye Trith) because my empire was severely punished.
Obviously, either concamping every native, or settling in sectors with exobots only in no man land between.
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Dilvish
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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#7 Post by Dilvish » Thu May 17, 2018 1:07 am

Voker57 wrote:
Dilvish wrote: Voker57 do you have enough experience with this patch yet to be able to formulate a corresponding colonization strategy?
Not a lot of experience, I played one game as Trith and had to choose between Trith and Mu Ursh (goodbye Trith) because my empire was severely punished.
Obviously, either concamping every native, or settling in sectors with exobots only in no man land between.
Hmm, well we've started some work on more involved system-network analysis which I think would make it easier for the AI to implement a sector-by-sector approach, but that will be a while yet before that's really ready to roll out. And I am doubtful that the "concamping every native" approach would really work very well.

Can I suggest that you start out with a much smaller increase to the xeno penalties, perhaps just one-thrd or one-half of the way from existing penalties towards what you have initially proposed here? Someplace where it is not so brutal that you can only get yourself to play one game as Trith :lol: , enough to be able to formulate a working strategy for them? It's fine with me if they still wind up being slightly weaker overall even for a human player (and then would be weaker yet for the AI), but it probably should not be a brutal crippling.
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Vezzra
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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#8 Post by Vezzra » Thu May 17, 2018 2:36 pm

I'm a bit wary if we should put too much effort into enabling the AI to handle the current xenophobic mechanics. IMO those are just a stop-gap solution until we can come up with Influence based mechanics. Which of course needs Influence implemented first. As this is currently planned for the next release cycle, we'd have to rewrite any AI xenophobic handling relatively soon anyway, so...

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Re: Nerfing Trith/Xenophobics

#9 Post by Voker57 » Fri May 18, 2018 6:13 pm

Consensus is with proper xenophobic mechanics trith are too weak to compete. Could use a small bonus I guess, maybe +25% population
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