Species: Nerada

Species suggestions, story ideas and contributions.
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Dilvish
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Re: Species: Nerada

#16 Post by Dilvish » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:20 pm

My recollection is that before we had added "HabitableSize" the recalibration done by it was instead done by "SizeAsDouble", but that the latter no longer does so. I find no other uses of "SizeAsDouble" in current scripting, and am pretty sure that it should not be used anymore for this kind of habitable size calculation.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

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Oberlus
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Re: Species: Nerada

#17 Post by Oberlus » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:32 am

Right, so I'm using HabitableSize.

Maybe I found two lacking definition in the stringtable file (or I failed to copy them when I first made the modifications to add Nerada):

Code: Select all

BLD_COL_NERADA
Nerada Colony

BLD_COL_NERADA_DESC
[[BLD_COL_PART_1]] [[species SP_NERADA]] colony. [[BLD_COL_PART_2]] Nerada colony [[BLD_COL_PART_3]].
Also, is it intended that they can inhabitate gas giants? Currently they can (hostile environment).

Regarding playability, I keep finding them quite OP. For five games with them (all 150 system young 4-arm spiral, 7 AIs, everything high) I've been the fucking overlord, with sky-rocketing PPs and population, and more research than any other player from turn ~40 and onwards (more colonies than anyone else, each giving +2 RP from Nascent AI). If you focus on building standard MD cruisers right from the start you pwn like a badass. And that is for young galaxies full of white and blue stars, otherwise it is just a cakewalk. Once you get your first exobot colony and pump out a few exobot trooper, you start getting homeworlds and make your RPs also skyrocket, and so my NO_RESEARCH species empire is always the most technologically advanced and with a military power that exceeds the sum of the three other strongest empires in the galaxy.

Jaumito
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Re: Species: Nerada

#18 Post by Jaumito » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:13 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:32 am
Right, so I'm using HabitableSize.
Right.
Maybe I found two lacking definition in the stringtable file (or I failed to copy them when I first made the modifications to add Nerada):

Code: Select all

BLD_COL_NERADA
Nerada Colony

BLD_COL_NERADA_DESC
[[BLD_COL_PART_1]] [[species SP_NERADA]] colony. [[BLD_COL_PART_2]] Nerada colony [[BLD_COL_PART_3]].
My fault, it seems I missed that part in the attached code/files.
Also, is it intended that they can inhabitate gas giants? Currently they can (hostile environment).
More like an oversight. I just left it here out of laziness and anyway it takes ages before you can actually set foot on GGs. Plus, I think it fits the species' theme. :lol:
Regarding playability, I keep finding them quite OP. For five games with them (all 150 system young 4-arm spiral, 7 AIs, everything high) I've been the fucking overlord, with sky-rocketing PPs and population, and more research than any other player from turn ~40 and onwards (more colonies than anyone else, each giving +2 RP from Nascent AI). If you focus on building standard MD cruisers right from the start you pwn like a badass. And that is for young galaxies full of white and blue stars, otherwise it is just a cakewalk. Once you get your first exobot colony and pump out a few exobot trooper, you start getting homeworlds and make your RPs also skyrocket, and so my NO_RESEARCH species empire is always the most technologically advanced and with a military power that exceeds the sum of the three other strongest empires in the galaxy.
I've no problem thrashing maniacal AIs with the Nerada (or any other species), my assessment of their strength was based on how they fared in 0.4.7 when AI-controlled. If a nerf is needed, I suggest (in order of preference) -
  1. Give them standard weapons again.
  2. Lose telepathy (although I suspect this could seriously cripple them - would be interesting to try.)
  3. Non-asteroid planets are at best adequate (as originally planned, but in 0.4.7 I stumbled upon a bug where planets could be terraformed ad infinitum without effect - don't know if it still happens in 0.4.8.)
  4. Make GGs unavailable instead of hostile, although as I said above, I don't think it'd be that big of a nerf.
Other suggestions?

Jaumito
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Re: Species: Nerada

#19 Post by Jaumito » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:10 am

Jaumito wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:13 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:32 am
Maybe I found two lacking definition in the stringtable file (or I failed to copy them when I first made the modifications to add Nerada):

Code: Select all

BLD_COL_NERADA
Nerada Colony

BLD_COL_NERADA_DESC
[[BLD_COL_PART_1]] [[species SP_NERADA]] colony. [[BLD_COL_PART_2]] Nerada colony [[BLD_COL_PART_3]].
My fault, it seems I missed that part in the attached code/files.
Argh, just found another missing block in stringtables:

Code: Select all

SCOTOTROPHIC_SPECIES_CLASS
Scototrophic

SCOTOTROPHIC_SPECIES_CLASS_DESC
List of [[encyclopedia SCOTOTROPHIC_SPECIES_TITLE]] species:

Jaumito
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Re: Species: Nerada

#20 Post by Jaumito » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:16 am

I did lots of changes to the Nerada lately:
  • Habitability changed to: asteroids=good, everything else=hostile
  • Can't terraform any longer (NO_TERRAFORM)
  • Population changed from good (GOOD_POPULATION) to average (AVERAGE_POPULATION)
  • Starts on a red star system, if generated orange or brighter (gives 18 starting pop on the HW, would be 6 otherwise)
  • Added good stockpiling (GOOD_STOCKPILE)
  • Pilots changed from great to normal (removed GREAT_WEAPONS)
  • (new) VARIABLE_STEALTH macro: gives planets stealth depending on star type
    • blue star: -40 stealth
    • white star: -20 stealth
    • yellow star: no bonus/malus
    • orange star: +20 stealth
    • red star: +40 stealth
    • neutron star, black hole, none: +60 stealth
  • (new) VARIABLE_SHIP_STEALTH macro: gives ships stealth depending on star type (same as above)
I tried to keep most of the changes into the species file as macro definitions, so if you, e.g., don't want the Nerada to use variable stealth ships, you only have to comment out the macro reference [[VARIABLE_SHIP_STEALTH]]

VARIABLE_SHIP_STEALTH is an experimental feature and probably won't stay (it can be stupidly good in the right circumstances), I just couldn't resist adding it in when I implemented variable planetary stealth.


Additional changes so far:
new definition for ~/stringtables/en.txt

Code: Select all

VARIABLE_STEALTH_DESC
+	Variable Planetary [[metertype METER_STEALTH]], dark systems get a higher bonus 

New species file attached.
SP_NERADA.focs.txt
(8.62 KiB) Downloaded 48 times

Jaumito
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Re: Species: Nerada

#21 Post by Jaumito » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:03 am

@Oberius: If you still find the Nerada OP with these changes, try this:
  • change asteroid habitability to Adequate (from Good)
  • (optional) comment out the VARIABLE_SHIP_STEALTH reference as explained above
  • (optional, but recommended if you want at least a 2-digits pop on your HW) change the starting system star to NoStar if Red or brighter - it should look like

    Code: Select all

            EffectsGroup
                scope = Contains Source
                activation = AND [
                    Planet
                    OR [
                        OwnedBy affiliation = AnyEmpire
                        Star type = [BlackHole NoStar]
                    ]
                    HasTag name = "SCOTOTROPHIC"
                    Turn high = 0
                    Star type = [Blue White Yellow Orange Red]
                ]
                effects = SetStarType type = NoStar
    
You should now be able to colonize only red-and-darker asteroids without hab tech. You'll need Planetary Ecology to colonize orange asteroids (at pop 1, initially), but to get onto yellow ones even Symbiotic Biology won't be enough: you'll have to set your HW to growth focus, AND be within supply range (on top of, at least, Planetary Ecology.)

Voskhod_02
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Re: Species: Nerada

#22 Post by Voskhod_02 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:52 am

I really like the Nerada, I don't really plan to play them a lot but it's nice to have a species that will prioritise colonising darker star systems, so that they don't become gameplay black holes on top of being literal ones.

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em3
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Re: Species: Nerada

#23 Post by em3 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:30 am

How about adding a space monster that is basically an Nerada-infested asteroid, but it shares the telepathic vision with the species (is an unowned ship crewed by Nerada)?

Actually, thinking about it, the Nerada could be beefed up a little and become a second end-game threat, just like Experimenters. They lurk in the shadows in the beginning, but gradually start to take over brighter systems, once their technology advances enough... Then finally start to extinguish stars, one by one, to make a perfect, dark universe.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

4xel
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Re: Species: Nerada

#24 Post by 4xel » Fri May 03, 2019 8:50 am

Nice species idea. I haven't tried them yet, but some things comes to mind.

As bad as it sounds like, I don't think "no research trait" is a crippling trait at all on its own, let alone on of the two most crippling traits. When playing an industry focused species (boost to industry or even just malus to research), I try to never need to use the research focus with them and make full use of their strength (usually one or two of the following from best to less good : good industry, good offensive troops, telpathic, good pilot, broad planet tolerance). In other words, I play them as if they were already a no research species already.


No ground troop is about the most crippling traits in the game, and the overall poor habitat tolerance (planet + scototrophic) sounds like it adds a lot more to the cripple than no research (it does delay exobots and is cri).

The initial version of Nereda looks like Sly on steroids, the latest looks like a balanced more extreme variant of them. Your balancing is really sensible, though do they really need both ultimate defensive troops and planetary stealth bonus?

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Re: Species: Nerada

#25 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat May 04, 2019 6:37 am

4xel wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:50 am
As bad as it sounds like, I don't think "no research trait" is a crippling trait at all on its own, let alone on of the two most crippling traits. When playing an industry focused species ...I play them as if they were already a no research species already.

No ground troop is about the most crippling traits in the game
no ground troops means currently you have to get them from somewhere, and for that i think research is your only current option (actually two ways via research if i am not mistaken). For a hidden research species that is actually not really a problem, it only means diversification of your empire takes longer.

So the combination is what makes no research trait suck badly, it delays your research growth.

My first take on Sly was similar: no_attack_troops and no colonization at all; the homeworld would give huge bonus, but the empire could only grow if you somehow could acquire another species (via the tech route). Then i remodelled them as peaceful hidden expansion species.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

4xel
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Re: Species: Nerada

#26 Post by 4xel » Sat May 04, 2019 12:16 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:37 am
no ground troops means currently you have to get them from somewhere, and for that i think research is your only current option (actually two ways via research if i am not mistaken).
My point is that for an industrial focused species, your main source of RP (beyond your capital) is Nascent Artificial AI, and Distributed Thought Computing if telepathic. No research does not hinders that, while narrow planet habitat does, which is why it is IMO much more crippling (though much less crippling than no offensive troops). Now it's not always relevant to discuss traits individually as I am doing, the combo of these 3-4 bad traits (including very narrow habitability and scochotropic) makes the species very interesting, not just the 2 from the original idea. But if I had to play them to win and could remove one of these bad traits, no troops would be the obvious first pick, but no research would very likely come after narrow planet suitability and scochotropic (not bad in absolute, but is really bad in particular for a resaearch poor species relying on mass colonization yet having a hard time to acquire xenospecies).

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