Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.
Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 662
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#16 Post by Oberlus » Wed May 30, 2018 12:01 am

Both fruits nonetheless. Maybe I didn't make my point.

The point is you can get enough stockpiling to keep your blockaded colonies working and to build on stranded colonies behind enemy lines, keeping all your planets on industry focus (or research), because the pop-based bonus you get from every planet (regardless of focus) gives enough stockpiling for that.
So the supply mechanics are effectively bypassed (at least to a considerable extend) at a little cost (the two first IS technologies). I'd like to know what @Geoff, @Vezzra and the other devs think about this.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 4609
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#17 Post by Vezzra » Wed May 30, 2018 9:25 am

Oberlus wrote:The point is you can get enough stockpiling to keep your blockaded colonies working and to build on stranded colonies behind enemy lines, keeping all your planets on industry focus (or research), because the pop-based bonus you get from every planet (regardless of focus) gives enough stockpiling for that.
So the supply mechanics are effectively bypassed (at least to a considerable extend) at a little cost (the two first IS technologies). I'd like to know what @Geoff, @Vezzra and the other devs think about this.
For species which aren't at least good/ultimate stockpilers, that's most certainly not how it should work. Those should have to commit a very substantial part of their colonies to stockpiling to achieve what you describe, at that tech level (early/mid tier).

But even good stockpilers should have to make a (much?) more serious commitment, especially at lower tech levels. The commitment has to be substantial, even for good stockpilers, as the IS feature is powerful.

Which is why I think the approach to have the stockpile focus and boni work similar to industry/research makes a lot of sense to me. If you want stockpile capacity, you need to set colonies to the stockpile focus, IS techs grant additional boni (flat or pop based) only to colonies set to the stockpile focus. Of course there should also be techs that grant boni independent of focus setting, but these should be the exception, not the rule (like e.g. Nascent Artifical Intelligence and Distributed Thought Computing do for research).

That way, any empire without good stockpiling species either needs to invest considerable RP to get IS techs to be able to get to decent stockpile capacity levels without having to commit too many of their colonies, or to set more of their colonies to the stockpile focus. Meaning, it requires the kind of commitment only worthwile in certain situations, or if they decide to employ a very special strategy.

Empires with good/ultimate stockpilers should be considerably more efficient at that of course. I guess species like the Sly should get a certain flat or pop based bonus which isn't dependent on focus setting right out of the box, or a fixed flat bonus from their homeworld, or something like that.

But overall, the stockpile boni need to be tied much more to the stockpile focus. The planetary foci are (one of the, if not the) primary means in FO to simulate/model commitment.

User avatar
Oberlus
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 662
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#18 Post by Oberlus » Wed May 30, 2018 11:16 am

Agree with Vezzra to the last point.


Just to be clear (because I didn't quote all the convesation in my last post and it may be ambiguous):
Current IS mechanics are not overpowered on early to mid game. Problem comes after non-stockpiling empires get the first two techs and have reached a "big" population.
The first two techs (Generic, Interstellar) gives you a total +0.03*pop bonus (non-focused), and that together with the species trait (also non-focus-binded) becomes too much.
From a certain point onwards, you'll have enough stockpile to do IS stuff regardless of the planetary focus. And in late game things get way worse with the Stockpile Center.



See below some figures for some scenarios, all for average species:
I'm ignoring the interspecies academies, but take into account that they will add up toa fixed 60 Stockpile (10 for each of max 6 buildings when set to stockpile).


MID GAME
* Generic and interst.; 300 pop, 15 planets, all industry-focused: MaxStockpile = 15, MaxIndustry = aprox. 300
This is fine.
* Idem, 10 industry-focused, 5 stockpiling: MaxStockpile = 95, MaxIndustry = aprox. 220
This is fine too (33% focus commitment allows you to trade 80 PPs/turn for +80 extra sotckpile limit (to a number that is enough for, e.g., some fast colony building).


LATE GAME (1000 pop, 50 planets)
* Generic+interst, all planets industry focused: MaxStockpile = 62, MaxIndustry = aprox. 3000
This is fine too, mostly. 62 is enough to build up one or two new colonies per turn ignoring supply.
* Idem + Stockpile Center: MaxStockpile = 362, MaxIndustry = aprox. 3000
So Stockpile Center allows you to add +10% of your industry output to MaxStockpile for just a "small" effort on getting the tech and the only building, effectively multiplying your stockpile by x6 with no focus commitment.

I think this Stockpile Center is truly evil.
By adding a percent of industry focus-less it means you are better focusing on improving your industry and then get the building, ignore void prediction and never again set any focus to stockpile.
If you make it to require the focus the problem stays the same because the building needs only the capital to be set to stockpile (among 50 or 100 planets).

10 % of your industry, when your industry is roughly equivalent to 3x pop, is also roughly equivalent to ULTIMATE_STOCKPILE, +0.3*pop to stockpile.
So I suggest to make the Stockpile Center add something like +0.2*pop to MaxStockpile of every stockpile-focused colony (exactly same way Industry Center works). Thus the better or worse industry of the species does not affect it's stockpile output, and the empire does not get any bonus for no effort.


STILL LATE GAME (1000 pop, 50 planets)
* With all techs and the Stockpile Center as suggested, 0 stockpile-focused: MaxStockpile = 62, MaxIndustry = aprox. 3000
* Idem with 10 stockpile-focused: MaxStockpile = aprox. 290, MaxIndustry = aprox. 2500
So you get little Stockpile if no focused planets, and you multiply that x5 (to make it roughly 10% of your industry output) with a 20% of your colonies set to stockpile.
I think that could be fine. So up to here, only (IMO) real concern regarding excessive stockpile is the Stockpile Center.


VERY LATE GAME (6000 pop, 200 planets, probably only in multiplayer games)
* With all techs (IS, industry, etc.), Stockpile Center as suggested:
- 0 stockpile planets: MaxStockpile = aprox. 300, MaxIndustry = aprox. 14500
- 10 (5%) stockpile planets: MaxStockpile = aprox. 540, MaxIndustry = aprox. 14000
- 40 (20%) stockpile planets: MaxStockpile = aprox. 1100, MaxIndustry = aprox. 12000
So with no stockpiling focus you can do whatever you want with 300 PPs per turn. That's beggining to be big enough for things like pumping out troopers from the just-conquered colonies in a bliztkrieg behind enemy lines. I think that is not fine.
And with 5% of your planets set to stockpile you exchange 3.4% of your production to double your stockpile (allowing aprox. 4% of your production to bypass the supply mechanics). The porcentual increase is small, feels the same, but we are still talking about near 600 PPs per turn bypassing supply with a very little commitment.
And with 20% "commitment", you are "lossing" 2500 PPs/turn in exchange of allowing 1100 PPs per turn to bypass the supply. Same conclusion.




My suggestion, post-release unless someone likes it so much they implement and merge it into release branch as well as master, is to make every pop-based stockpile bonus focus-dependent (including stockpile species trait, just like industry and research traits work).
And to avoid crippling Sly (who really need stockpile output with no focus at the start), add {+0,+1,+3,+10,+30} to the homeworld of {bad,average,good,great,ultimate} stockpile species. This allows them to have slightly better (than current) stockpile at the start and not so good as the game progresses, encouraging them to get IS techs.

These two changes should ensure widespread use of stockpile focus for empires that want to do "IS" stuff (because you no longer get noticeable stockpile bonuses from nothing, you need the focus, but now the focus is not just a tine +3 extra, but also adds the pop-dep bonus).
And together with the suggested Stockpile Center modification, this should imply that for any noticeable stockpile use you need some current commitment (i.e. focus switching and loss of PPs/RPs). The only IS stuff that remains doable with no stockpile focus is early distributed expansion for great stockpile species (Good stockpile species will be fine too, but will probably need Generic Supplies and get one planet to stockpile sooner than Sly in order to keep the same distributed expansion pace.

phocas
Space Floater
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#19 Post by phocas » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:20 pm

i don't understand this screen and the production / stockpile numbers

Image

* ok i do not use all the PP so the supply lines are outlined
* ok the excess PP will go to the stockpile (green number)

?? but i do not understand the red !! production warning
usually it means that some PP will be lost but it seems it will be no lost with the stockpile

i have to lower the excess PP under 800 by seting new production queue to remove the !! warning

if i kept the heavy 2.53 k excess PP the calculation will be fine
the next turn show the a right stockpile with 4.40 K stock (1.87 + 2.53)

i'm playing v0.4.8 release-v0.4.8 [build 2018-06-04.41c7665] CMake from the linux PPA

i can provide saved game or log if needed

User avatar
Dilvish
AI Lead, Programmer
Posts: 4685
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#20 Post by Dilvish » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:48 pm

phocas wrote:?? but i do not understand the red !! production warning
usually it means that some PP will be lost but it seems it will be no lost with the stockpile
With the IS, that warning pops up if on the current turn you are sending more to the IS than 1/3 (I think) of your per-turn max draw from the IS.
If I provided any code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0

phocas
Space Floater
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Reviewing the current Imperiahl Stockpile mechanics

#21 Post by phocas » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:10 pm

i'm still missing something about tracking the PP lost and the stockpile use

tested with the last rc2 on ubuntu 2018-06-24.4983374 0.4.8 pre-Release Candidate 2.

dikavara is out of suply line and loosing 5 PP from the production view but there is no !! warning

Image

if i forced the stockpile with the build queue the 5 PP are no more lost and there is no change in the stockpile screen

Image

so i understand the 5 PP where stocked before i had in the building the stockpile transfert
it seems that i'm depleting 6.58 from the stockpile and stocking 5.0 PP from dikavara but it is not easy to see
some screens show there are PP lost and some they are not
maybe it will need more different colors tho show what's going home

the line excess 5.00 PP should only be red if there are effective lost

if the free PP are not lost but savec in the stockpile there should be another color, maybe green as then the stockpile is growing
excess 5.00 PP

the total stockpile number 526 (-1.96) could be more explicit with more numbers
if it is possible with the screen width 5.26 ( -1.96 = +5.0 - 6.96 ) could be very nice and more easy to check/understand

f there i no room in the top line it should at least be in the popup stockpile detail with 1 more line to show the + / -
replacing the "stockpile use" line by the 2 lines (stockpile add, / stock pile lost)

Image

User avatar
Oberlus
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 662
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#22 Post by Oberlus » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:12 pm

phocas wrote:i'm still missing something about tracking the PP lost and the stockpile use
There is no waste PPs anymore. No way. What you don't use in a given turn, is stored in the Stockpile, all of it.

The old waste warning icon is no longer a message of waste. What it indicates now is an excessive input into de stockpile. Excessive in that you will need alot of time to take it back from the stockpile. So when you see the icon, it is telling you that it's probably a bad idea to keep the current stockpiling (input) rate, and you better start looking for something to spend your production into.

phocas
Space Floater
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#23 Post by phocas » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:04 pm

thanks Oberlus i see the light :wink:

, i understand now that stockpile limits is only about depleting rate and using the stock

i was thinking that stockpile techs were about how much you can move in stockpile (+ or -) so fearing it can be a max stocking flow limit

stocking heavy PP numbers is not necessary a bad thing if youre waiting for a major tech upgrade (new hull)

User avatar
Oberlus
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 662
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Reviewing the current Imperial Stockpile mechanics

#24 Post by Oberlus » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:09 pm

phocas wrote:stocking heavy PP numbers is not necessary a bad thing if youre waiting for a major tech upgrade (new hull)
It's a bad thing if the time you'll need to take them back is big enough. Example: You have 100 PP production and 10 PP stockpile use limit. If you let 50% of your PPs go into stockpile for 5 turns (250), you'll get 10 PPs back per turn from then on, so you'll have a +10% PP availability for 25 turns. So after 25 turns you'll have 11 instead of 10 (or whatever) ships. Not a great increase. But you could have had a pair more of older ships 25 turns sooner.
If you plan to make some heavy use of the IS, you need stockpiling species or stockpiling techs, set your capital(s) to stockpiling focus and build some stuff.
If you are Laenfa or Sly, with way better stockpiling output, it is a different story.

Post Reply