Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

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Oberlus
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Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#1 Post by Oberlus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:53 pm

Let's assume we remove every tech that gives a bonus to production or research. Then, the only way to increase those meters would be through increasing population by expansion (more colonies) and growth techs (more population per colony).
Each increasing-population tech gives a +1 or +2 per planet size (to some or all environments) so you never get a huge boost to the total population (+1*N_COLONIES).
Coupled with an steady colonisation process, you get a superlinear increase in total population, and thus you also get a superlinear increase on research and production (even without research/production techs).

The techs that increase production&research do not follow the same figures than the techs that increase population. At first you get small increases and then huge ones (+0.1*population, then +0.2*pop... +0.5*pop...). So when you have 1-2 colonies you get increases around +10% or +20%, when you have around 10 colonies you are getting +50%. So we are coupling two superlinear effects, and thus at some point the production or research output graphs (x=time, y=output) show a function similar to constant^x (i.e. way faster than x^constant, that is already snowballing).

My point: I think that by making the production&research increases more constant (and keeping their current research/production costs), the snowball effect could be greatly mitigated (if that is desired*).

Starting suggestion (for eventual discussion):
- Algorithmic Elegance: +0.1*pop (as now)
- Black Hole Power Gen.: +0.3*pop (down from +1.0)
- Collective Network: +0.2*pop (down from +1.25)
- Distributed Thought: +0.1*pop (as now)
- Enclave of the Void: +0.2*pop (down from +0.75)
- Energy Metabolism (prod/res): +0.1/+0.2*pop (down from +0.2/+0.5)
- Fusion Generation: +0.1*pop (down from +0.2)
- Hyperdam: +0.2*pop (down from +1.0)
- Industrial Center (I/II/III): +0.1/0.2/0.3*pop (down from +0.2/0.4/0.6)
- Quantum Networking: +0.1*pop (down from +0.5)
- Robotic Production: +0.1*pop (as now)
- Solar Orbital Generator (red/yellow/blue): +0.1/0.15/0.2*pop (down from +0.1/0.2/0.4)
- Stellar Tomography (red/blue/neutron/black): +0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4*pop (down from +0.2/0.5/0.75/1)

Basically, make +0.2 every building/tech with extra requirements or very late game, and +0.1 the rest.

* I would desire it.

Edit: Added missing Quantum Networking, changed BHPG +0.3 (instead of +0.2) and SOG +0.1/0.15/0.2 (instead of +0.1/0.2/0.3).
Last edited by Oberlus on Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jaumito
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#2 Post by Jaumito » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:09 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:53 pm
- Black Hole Power Gen.: +0.2*pop (down from +1.0)
- Solar Orbital Generator (red/yellow/blue): +0.1/0.2/0.3*pop (down from +0.1/0.2/0.4)
It would make sense to have at least BHPG top SOG (+0.4*pop?) - you get the tech way later, most of the time you first have to collapse a red star to be able to build one. A much larger investment should bring a (even if slightly) larger reward.

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Vezzra
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#3 Post by Vezzra » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:56 am

I've been suggesting to drastically nerf the resource output boni for a long time. My approach would be to increase the basic resource output rate, and decrease the boni granted by techs/specials/etc. I've been thinking along the lines of having resource output boni in the range of 0.02 to 0.2 per pop (instead of 0.1 to 1, which is what we have now). Maybe, in very rare cases, up to 0.5 per pop, as a super special bonus for an extremely hard to get late game tech, or something like that.

That should go a long way to significantly flatten the resource output increase curves.

The current boni are ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced. The reason for that is actually quite simple: Originally there had been 4 basic resource types: food, minerals, industry and research. The tech tree was roughly balanced to account for that. However, when we discarded minerals and food, we didn't rebalance the tech tree accordingly, but just switched techs that gave boni to food or minerals to give boni to pop or industry. The end result is the mess we have now.

So, basically, yes, I too am very much in favor of such changes. The challenge here are the required adjustments to the AI, which I expect to be far from trivial. Furthermore, with the introduction of Influence and colony upkeep mechanics in the next release cycle, the tech tree is going to need a thorough rebalancing pass anyway, so there has been no point in investing too much effort in that endeavour before.

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