Make blockade work for one turn only

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Vezzra
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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#16 Post by Vezzra » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:03 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:48 pm
Problem is if they are blocking a system they have supply. You force the attacker to get more detection, meanwhile you are untouchable.
Sorry if I've been unclear on that point: having supply should not be enough in that case. Even if the system you are blockading is within your supply, as long as enemy armed ships are present and your carrier stays hidden, it can't resupply fighters. It can come out of hiding, but then the enemy can detect and attack it.
Also, fighter-only carriers (no other weapons) being able to punish you at pleasure with the only hinder that they need to go back and forth to resupply fighters does not seem fun or interesting. I've done that with Sly, taking down whole fleets with not a single loss on my fleets. OP.
Well, that's a consequence of how stealth currently works, this all or nothing thing. As long as we haven't fixed that, you're right, stealthy carriers need to be nerfed somehow.

But in the long run, once we fixed stealth and detection, I want stealthy carriers back. :D

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#17 Post by Oberlus » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:15 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:03 pm
Well, that's a consequence of how stealth currently works, this all or nothing thing. As long as we haven't fixed that, you're right, stealthy carriers need to be nerfed somehow.

But in the long run, once we fixed stealth and detection, I want stealthy carriers back. :D
In current proposal of stealth rework, it would not be an all-or-nothing, or not like currently: weapons will have a noise parameter, also launch bays (probably less noisy than other weapons). Having much more stealth than your opponent would allow you to exploit stealth as currently (untouched after combat), partially if the stealth advantage is not so great, and only barely (first round) if only marginal advantage. What do you think about that? Good enough or still a placeholder?

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#18 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:19 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:15 pm
What do you think about that? Good enough or still a placeholder?
I've only glanced over the linked thread in the past, and of what I can remember and according to your summary here I think it at least sounds promising. The only thing that comes to my mind of which I don't know if it is adequately addressed is that the proposal looks very combat-focused. Getting stealth right for combat is of course one of the most, if not the most important aspect of stealth, but not the only one. Getting rid of the all-or-nothing effect of stealth must also work in all other cases where stealth comes into play.

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#19 Post by JonCST » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:03 pm
Well, that's a consequence of how stealth currently works, this all or nothing thing. As long as we haven't fixed that, you're right, stealthy carriers need to be nerfed somehow.
Would it be possible to add a check to the blockading logic, such that carriers with no guns and no fighters wouldn't be counted towards a blockade? Seems like it should be a quick patch, and would go a long way towards a remedy.

I can see a logic justification whereby stealth carriers have a stealth launch mode, and are not themselves detected (Maybe they shoot the fighters out of the bay with giant bungee cords?). But, i can't see why a ship you can't see and which can't attack you should contribute to a blockade.

Jon

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#20 Post by JonCST » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:45 pm

JonCST wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm
Would it be possible to add a check to the blockading logic [...]
Also to the "in-combat" logic? Currently stealth carriers prevent repairing ships, etc. But, if it can't attack you, you're not in-combat, and it shouldn't prevent you getting repaired?

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#21 Post by Vezzra » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:15 pm

All that (stealth carrier without any weapons and fighters being able to blockade, prevent repairs etc.) should be solvable by just making a weapon- and fighterless carrier not counting as armed (apparenty they count as armed currently - Geoff?). Non-armed ships don't blockade, prevent repairs etc., AFAIK.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#22 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:44 am

ShipDesigns, and thus Ships, are considered able to attack for combat purposes if they have a direct weapon, a fighter bay, or a fighter hangar.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... .cpp#L1319
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... m.cpp#L865

Fleets can be blockaded at a system check if they are not armed and have no fighters, which checks if any of the fleet's ships have direct weapons or fighter parts.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... .cpp#L1269

For supply obstruction purposes, a fleet needs to contain ships that have direct weapons or fighter parts, and be aggressive:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... e.cpp#L771

Presence or lack of actual fighters isn't considered currently. So what you want instead is for these test to require the ship to have >= 1 fighter it can launch and >= 1 launch bay?

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#23 Post by em3 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:07 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:44 am
ShipDesigns, and thus Ships, are considered able to attack for combat purposes if they have a direct weapon, a fighter bay, or a fighter hangar.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... .cpp#L1319
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... m.cpp#L865

Fleets can be blockaded at a system check if they are not armed and have no fighters, which checks if any of the fleet's ships have direct weapons or fighter parts.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... .cpp#L1269

For supply obstruction purposes, a fleet needs to contain ships that have direct weapons or fighter parts, and be aggressive:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... e.cpp#L771

Presence or lack of actual fighters isn't considered currently. So what you want instead is for these test to require the ship to have >= 1 fighter it can launch and >= 1 launch bay?
So does that mean you can build a colony base hull with fighter hangar and no bays and it will be a cheaper blocker than a small hull with weakest SR weapon?
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#24 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:56 pm

em3 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:07 am
So does that mean you can build a colony base hull with fighter hangar and no bays and it will be a cheaper blocker than a small hull with weakest SR weapon?
Maybe? Wouldn't be able to move anywhere though, so not that useful. Feel free to test...

More important is how it should work...

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#25 Post by JonCST » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm

Hi all. Geoff The Medio explained, then clarified:
Geoff the Medio wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:44 am
ShipDesigns, and thus Ships, are considered able to attack for combat purposes if they have a direct weapon, a fighter bay, or a fighter hangar.
[...]
For supply obstruction purposes, a fleet needs to contain ships that have direct weapons or fighter parts, and be aggressive:
[...]
Presence or lack of actual fighters isn't considered currently. So what you want instead is for these test to require the ship to have >= 1 fighter it can launch and >= 1 launch bay?
That makes sense to me. And of course, any direct weapon (MD, laser, PC, DR, SAC,...).

Thanks.

PS: might make more sense to just check for fighters >= 1, and prevent building of hangers with no bays (and vice versa) in the design module?
J.

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#26 Post by em3 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:25 am

JonCST wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:36 pm
PS: might make more sense to just check for fighters >= 1, and prevent building of hangers with no bays (and vice versa) in the design module?
J.
I was thinking of creating a ship part that allows refilling fleet hangars from hangars in its own hull (a fighter factory ship). As such, hangars would not be necessary (even, potentially, harmful, as they could drop the support ship from stealth).
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#27 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:09 pm

+1 for only blockading if there are fighters in the hangar and there is a launch bay (or of course a weapon part).

What was lost here I think is the question of refilled fighters - should resupplied fighters be allowed to blockade (e.g. you have 0 fighters left but are in supply so next turn you will have fighters again.)? (There is somewhere a parallel discussion about the Armed condition in FOCS where we were talking about this).

I would prefer if blockade is only possible if the ship had fighters left last turn (so not able to blockade using only fighters from resupply).

Actually going one level further one would also check if the weapon and fighters actually have damage >= 1 (there might be damage suppressing effects and decoy weapons and fighters).

One more down the rabbithole things start getting muddy: you can only blockade ships which you can hurt. So well shielded ships could simply pass by.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#28 Post by Geoff the Medio » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:57 pm

em3 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:25 am
I was thinking of creating a ship part that allows refilling fleet hangars from hangars in its own hull (a fighter factory ship).
A part that replenishes fighters in other ships but might be OK as long as it doesn't do so by transferring preexisting fighters between ships. Being able to ferry fighters using a ship to refill other ships could lead to micromanagement issues.

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#29 Post by Geoff the Medio » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:59 pm

I've created a pull request that requires ships to have a direct weapon or to have bay and hangar and at least one fighter that can do damage to be counted as armed. Various places that checked for armed ships were also accordingly updated.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/2547

If you an build from source, please test...

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Re: Make blockade work for one turn only

#30 Post by em3 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:49 am

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:57 pm
A part that replenishes fighters in other ships but might be OK as long as it doesn't do so by transferring preexisting fighters between ships. Being able to ferry fighters using a ship to refill other ships could lead to micromanagement issues.
I was thinking more of transferring its own fighters to other ships. And a core part that replenishes the fighters. Although this could be micro-friendly... it would allow creating ships that ferry fighters from supply to war zones and return to supply for more fighters.

I guess a core fighter factory which replenishes fighters in allied ships would be better.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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