Starbases

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.
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xahodo
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Starbases

#1 Post by xahodo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:41 pm

I noticed that this game doesn't contain starbases. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to build such things?

The starbase could be just another hull, but is required to be brought to its location (where it'll spend the remainder of its life) by a special cargo ship (basically, the thing builds the starbase and has everything needed for the starbase in question). Constructing the starbase consumes the ship.

A starbase could then hold a strategic position at a star against enemy fleets, facilitate trade or be a remote supply center (extend supply range). Or all of those. However, it cannot move and requires upkeep.

Once at a position, starbases can be upgraded to the latest design at a cost.

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Oberlus
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Re: Starbases

#2 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:40 pm

This has been suggested before, more than once (and more or less rejected if it would allow for settling into deep space, since that would broke the purpose of deep space/empty systems of bringing in different "terrain").

Also, it would be another source of micromanagement if it could be useful on many of your systems. You can consider that planetary defenses are a non-micromanaging way of having virtual starbases. Another way is building Titanic hulls to camp at strategic systems (and they already have integrated the engines to move elsewhere).

However, the idea of immobile starbases/space stations are not really discarded. It has been in the discussion table "recently":
https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtop ... ase#p87078

And it is a recurrent term in many threads if you look for it:
https://www.freeorion.org/forum/search. ... mit=Search
https://www.freeorion.org/forum/search. ... mit=Search

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EricF
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Re: Starbases

#3 Post by EricF » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:44 am

I still want my Starbases. :)

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Oberlus
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Re: Starbases

#4 Post by Oberlus » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:15 am

I would like to have a huge titanic-like hull with very slow speed (10?) and double HP, slots (maybe only one core slot?) and cost. And ideally, it should not get the speed boost from Interstellar Logistics (by changing the "Speed low = 1" in there to "Speed low = 20"). But this can't work out without further changes in code (maybe easy ones) because you could place an engine to increase the speed, which would kill the purpose of such a hull. Currently, only way to avoid increasing speed of a hull is by not having internal slots, and that seems so bad (I expect starbases to be able to hold fighters and stealth).

Regarding micromanagement, I realised just now that you can use the Objects window to set all your colonies to build something on a few clicks (currently only buildings).

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EricF
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Re: Starbases

#5 Post by EricF » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:55 am

But a ship does not increase Supply range, which is what I want bases for. When playing on maps with very few stars it would be nice to make an artificial Supply point some how. Especially early game. I'm not concerned with making static defenses. A Fleet is much better for that. And except for some of the early cheap Planetary Defenses I don't even bother researching those lines. Mobile Fleets are always better at defense.

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Oberlus
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Re: Starbases

#6 Post by Oberlus » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:08 am

EricF wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:55 am
But a ship does not increase Supply range, which is what I want bases for. When playing on maps with very few stars it would be nice to make an artificial Supply point some how. Especially early game.
But that would break (part of) the intended purpose of playing on maps with many empty spaces: to force you increase your supply via techs and buildings.
I'm not concerned with making static defenses. A Fleet is much better for that. And except for some of the early cheap Planetary Defenses I don't even bother researching those lines. Mobile Fleets are always better at defense.
Agree!

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em3
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Re: Starbases

#7 Post by em3 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:10 am

EricF wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:55 am
But a ship does not increase Supply range, which is what I want bases for.
Couldn't it, though? It would have to act as a population centre, but IIRC it was already possible for ships...

EDIT: No, it is not. But, theoretically, ships could be made resource centres or population centres. It does require some C++ work.
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Re: Starbases

#8 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:44 pm

If one wanted to try without c++ to try out:

one could script a kind of core ship part which creates a tiny planet (maybe with a special SPACE_STATION to set values right late in the effects/introduce a new kind of planet).

The creation could be triggered if the ship sits in an empty system (i.e. no planets) for lets say five turns.

The station could selfdestruct if an enemy captures it.
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xahodo
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Re: Starbases

#9 Post by xahodo » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:01 pm

Regardless of whether it's been mentioned before a couple of times ( :) ), it's good to have a structure that extends supply range and is able to defend itself.

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Re: Starbases

#10 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:34 am

If somebody wants to script up starbases i offer mentoring ;)
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Oberlus
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Re: Starbases

#11 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:16 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:44 pm
core ship part which creates [...]
I think that is the right approach.
a tiny planet
Since the size of the planet determines the supply range, this might be subject to balance.
But, which environment? Barren I guess (just because any planet must have an environment).
And with an outpost already built. Otherwise it would have no owner and would require uninteresting micromanagement (requiring two ships, the one to create the tiny planet and the outposter).
(maybe with a special SPACE_STATION to set values right late in the effects/introduce a new kind of planet)
Introducing a new kind of planet would require C++ code changes.
With the SPACE_STATION I think it can be done with no C++ changes?
Since the space station would be coded as an (artificial) barren planet with an outpost, said special should control/ensure that it is not colonisable.

I don't understand what you mean with "set values right late in the effects". Whatever you meant, would that be ensured with my previous assumptions/suggestions?
The creation could be triggered if the ship sits in an empty system (i.e. no planets) for lets say five turns.
Better something else. Otherwise you must worry about not letting your idling "deep space outposters" to settle where you don't want. I'd prefer an "outpost this empty space" button to appear when the conditions are met. But I guess that would require C++ code changes?
Maybe there could be a FOCS-only workaround scrapping the ship (when at empty space). Can you set a FOCS effect to trigger at the end of turn when a ship is being set for scrapping (and before the ship is actually scrapped, unless that is not necessary if you can base the effect on the core part of the ship after it has been destroyed)?
The station could selfdestruct if an enemy captures it.
Why? I think it would be nice and reasonable to be able to capture enemy deep space stations. If you don't want your space stations to be captured, defend them.
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:34 am
If somebody wants to script up starbases i offer mentoring ;)
:D
What would be the conditions and commands (if any) for:
- Ship is at empty space.
- Ship is market for scrapping.
- There are no enemy armed ships at system.
- Create a planet of size X and environment Y.
- Set an special X at planet.
- Set an outpost at a planet belonging to the empire that owns the ship with the core part that triggered the creation of the planet.
Maybe more comming.

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Re: Starbases

#12 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:34 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:16 pm
I don't understand what you mean with "set values right late in the effects". Whatever you meant, would that be ensured with my previous assumptions/suggestions?
I meant setting values so the space station does not act like a normal planet. E.g. maybe set supply to 1 and set production,research,population... to 0.
The creation could be triggered if the ship sits in an empty system (i.e. no planets) for lets say five turns.
Better something else. Otherwise you must worry about not letting your idling "deep space outposters" to settle where you don't want. I'd prefer an "outpost this empty space" button to appear when the conditions are met. But I guess that would require C++ code changes?[/quote]
Yes, no scriptable buttons/actions yet (those would be a great feature though). This could be a "ship action" or a "system button" if such existed.
You could also add a two-component thingy: you need another ship part to be present in the same system. I think its not so bad that the space station gets established if it runs out of fuel.
Maybe there could be a FOCS-only workaround scrapping the ship (when at empty space). Can you set a FOCS effect to trigger at the end of turn when a ship is being set for scrapping (and before the ship is actually scrapped, unless that is not necessary if you can base the effect on the core part of the ship after it has been destroyed)?
AFAIK scrapped ships get removed before any effects happen.
The station could selfdestruct if an enemy captures it.
Why? I think it would be nice and reasonable to be able to capture enemy deep space stations.
First i think the selfdestruct would make it more interesting from a strategic point of view. At least there should be a way to kill of space stations.
What would be the conditions and commands (if any) for:
- Ship is at empty space.
- Ship is market for scrapping.
- There are no enemy armed ships at system.
- Create a planet of size X and environment Y.
- Set an special X at planet.
- Set an outpost at a planet belonging to the empire that owns the ship with the core part that triggered the creation of the planet.
Maybe more comming.
Use following at your own risk:
- Ship is at empty space. ship hull/part: "activation = And [System Not Contains condition = Planet]"
- Ship is market for scrapping. NOT POSSIBLE
- There are no enemy armed ships at system. ship hull/part: "activation = And [System Not Contains condition = Armed]"
- Create a planet of size X and environment Y. in "effects = CreatePlanet type = TYPE size = SIZE"
- Set an special X at planet. Add a special to all planets in the system 'scope = And [ Planet InSystem id = Source.SystemID ]' effects= 'effects = AddSpecial name = "NAME"'
- Set an outpost at a planet belonging to the empire that owns the ship with the core part that triggered the creation of the planet. "SetOwner empire = Source.Owner"

Have a look how that effects and conditions are used in other content and
https://www.freeorion.org/index.php/FOC ... ng_Details
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Oberlus
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Re: Starbases

#13 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:08 pm

Thanks for the advices, Ophiuchus :)
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:34 pm
I meant setting values so the space station does not act like a normal planet. E.g. maybe set supply to 1 and set production,research,population... to 0.
That should be automatically granted by making the planet an outpost (that has no population nor production/research), and ensuring it can't be colonised (via the new SPACE_STATION special).

Given the different problems to script the (IMO) ideal effects, I guess the best way to trigger the space station creation will be your initial suggestion of a number of turns immobile in an empty space. At least until/if the scripting of outposting-like buttons is coded (it may be impossible or very difficult, I realise current buttons only appear at existing planets, not at empty spaces).

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