Fighter targetting poll

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.
Post Reply

Choose your targets

Poll ended at Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:48 pm

Bombers should target ships first
7
22%
Bombers should target fighters if there are no ships
4
13%
Interceptors should target Bombers first
7
22%
Interceptors should target ships if there are no fighters
6
19%
Fighters should target enemy ships with flak first
3
9%
Fighters should target enemy fighters first
3
9%
The default number of combat rounds should be increased from 3 to 4
2
6%
 
Total votes: 32

Message
Author
Ophiuchus
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Fighter targetting poll

#1 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:48 pm

Jaumito wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:33 am
this thread is born from another discussion about the relevance of having several fighter types.

The consensus then was that, at the moment, interceptors and bombers are rather underwhelming to say the least. One proposed solution was to introduce target priorities for all fighter types, to allow for more, and more interesting, ship design choices and strategic decisions.
Combat targeting was merged into master (PR-2330) and so i'll poll for opinions how to make the different types of fighters more distinct.
(TODO: insert link to thread where we discuss that currently fighter/bomber/interceptor distinction makes no sense)

This is what the implementation does currently.
  • Flak parts target space boats
  • Interceptor fighters target space boats
  • Bomber and Fighter fighters target ships and space boats
  • It is possible to define target 'tiers', shooting 'first' at one kind of preferred target and fall back to a secondary tier of targets if there are no preferred targets in the combat
'Space boat' here means any of the different fighter types (Interceptor/Bomber/Fighter).
Note that flak parts are very efficient; I guess

The way I imagine the types to work in a broad sense:
  • Bombers hunt space ships
  • Interceptors try to stop them by shooting down bombers and being cannon fodder
  • Fighters try to achieve supremacy regarding to space boats; e.g. eradicating other boats and destroying anti-boat ships (aka ships containing Flak parts)
Explanations for the poll options (choose as many as you like; all; none)
  • Bombers should target ships first: Bomber boats will shoot only at enemy ships (if there are any)
  • Bombers should target fighters if there are no ships: Bombers will shoot at space boats if there are no enemy space ships. If you do not choose this you want that Bombers can not attack enemy space boats
  • Interceptors should target Bombers first: Interceptors attack only Bombers (if there are any) and shoot at any type of space boat if there are no enemy Bombers
  • Interceptors should target ships if there are no fighters: Interceptors will shoot at space ships if there are no enemy space boats. If you do not choose this you want that Interceptors can not attack enemy space ships.
  • Fighters should target enemy ships with flak first: Fighters attack enemy ships which contain the Flak cannon part if there are any (== ships with SR_WEAPON_0_1 parts are first tier targets). If you do not choose this you do not want flak parts to be part of the targeting condition.
  • Fighters should target enemy boats first: Fighters attack enemy boats if there are any (== boats are first tier targets). If you do not choose this you want ships and fighters to be on the same target tier.
  • The default number of combat rounds should be increased from 3 to 4: Currently there are three combat rounds, with the first round being used to launch space boats leaving only two rounds for boat combat. If we increase this to four combat rounds, there is more time for flak and ships to resolve boat combat. Also currently adding extra hangars makes little sense (because those boats will only fight for a single round), with four combat rounds those will fight two for rounds.
Note that Fighters target enemy ships and fighters in the secondary tier.

After the poll is finished next Monday I will implement the mostly chosen options as PR.
I suggest that we merge it into master and get some playing experience with it.

edit1: add Jaumito quote
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

Ophiuchus
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#2 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:58 pm

Oh i forgot to ask if you guys want space marines troop part :twisted:

Having space marines on board has two effects:
  • adds a first tier to the target condition, which makes the ships' weapons attack enemy troop ships (== ships which contain troop parts)
  • after the normal combat marines try to enter enemy troop ships, decreasing troop capacity of the enemy ship by the space marines troop capacity
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
Oberlus
Bloated Juggernaut
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#3 Post by Oberlus » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:58 pm
Oh i forgot to ask if you guys want space marines troop part :twisted:

Having space marines on board has two effects:
  • adds a first tier to the target condition, which makes the ships' weapons attack enemy troop ships (== ships which contain troop parts)
  • after the normal combat marines try to enter enemy troop ships, decreasing troop capacity of the enemy ship by the space marines troop capacity
I think I don't get this part :)
If I can't take control of enemy ships (much preferably enemy warships) I don't see the point.
To reduce the number or troops in enemy troop ships I rather shoot those defenseless ships down than pit my own marines against them.
The only use I see for marine parts is what we got in MoO2: you can use them to board and seize enemy ships and to defend against such tactics. Is that an option? Invading ships instead of planets.

Ophiuchus
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#4 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:58 pm
Having space marines on board has ...
I think I don't get this part :)
If I can't take control of enemy ships (much preferably enemy warships) I don't see the point.
To reduce the number or troops in enemy troop ships I rather shoot those defenseless ships down than pit my own marines against them.
My marines do both ;)
The troop reduction would work also against high structure troop ships and they dont take up weapon slots (and could be comparatively cheap).
So pit your stealthed marines in organic ships against enemy heavy asteroid troop ships?
Not sure how interesting the idea is though ;)
Oberlus wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 pm
The only use I see for marine parts is what we got in MoO2: you can use them to board and seize enemy ships and to defend against such tactics. Is that an option? Invading ships instead of planets.
I dont know how that worked in MoO2, but taking over (randomly chosen?) ships is scriptable in principle.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
Oberlus
Bloated Juggernaut
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#5 Post by Oberlus » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:50 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pm
they dont take up weapon slots (and could be comparatively cheap).
I guess I need to know all the details. Wouldn't it take up a "launch bay" of a sort? My first idea after reading "marine troops part" was this:
- Works similar as a fighter weapon.
- To have marines on board, you need an internal part. Maybe there should be a base number of marines on board for every hull (to represent the crew resistance to boarding).
- This marines fight back any intruding enemy marine, using same mechanics than planetary invasion: numbers win.
- To be able to "shoot" marines at other ships you need an specific launch bay. It launches one (or two with heavy troops refinement) marine pods. This marine pods should be treated as bomber fighters (they are anti-capital ship weapons, like bombers).
- Marine pods (a kind of fighter) can target ships (preferably warships). If they are not taken down on combat round 2, they "hit" on target at the end of round 2, and if the intruders win, the ship is out of combat during round 3 (and subsecuent, if any) and the ship will be controlled by the invading marines' Empire next turn.
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pm
The troop reduction would work also against high structure troop ships
[...]
So pit your stealthed marines in organic ships against enemy heavy asteroid troop ships?
Not sure how interesting the idea is though ;)
I still don't find it interesting.

Also, what happens to a troop ship whose troop capacity has been zeroed by enemy marines? It is an empty troop ship now and you can take it back to a friendly colony for troop refill or is it destroyed?

User avatar
Oberlus
Bloated Juggernaut
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#6 Post by Oberlus » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:59 pm

Regarding the targetting options for fighters, what I would like most is to give value to bombers and interceptors in their own niches against the (currently very good) multi-purpose fighter.
So I would make fighter have no targetting rules, interceptor target all kind of space boats (if none, then also ships), and bomber all kind of enemy ships (if none, then also space boats). Also increase bomber damage at the higher level techs.

And I encourage you all to consider changing the name of the generic category from "fighters"/"space boats" to "drones". Much less confusion.

Ophiuchus
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#7 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:22 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:50 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pm
they dont take up weapon slots (and could be comparatively cheap).
I guess I need to know all the details. Wouldn't it take up a "launch bay" of a sort?
I wanted to make it internal/external part like normal troops and simply attach a post-combat effect.

Mixing it with space combat mechanics like launch bays is not possible currently. We would need to make effects possible during combat, probably being able to query events; sth like hitEffects (or something like combatEffects with effectgroups with something like activation conditions where you can filter events "got_hit", "hits").

I think empty troop ships should be able to refill spending one turn out of combat, supply-connected to a planet of the ships species.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
Oberlus
Bloated Juggernaut
Posts: 994
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#8 Post by Oberlus » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:36 pm

In that case (not messing with combat mechanics, just post-combat effect)...
The killing of enemy troopers on ships is something that I just don't get it. I don't see the benefit.

Regarding the seizing of ships (to control them), what about this (a complex post-combat effect):
- If there are enemy ships alive after combat and allied marine troop parts, calculate some probabilities of board-success for each marine part based on the numbers of enemy functioning flaks/interceptors and the number of allied marine troop parts in the system, and roll a dice for each one to see if it hits, and in that case confront onboard enemy crew+marines against boarding marines in a planet-invasion like combat.
But I don't think that is possible, and it would certainly be better to adapt combat mechanics instead.

Ophiuchus
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Fighter targetting poll

#9 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:48 am

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:36 pm
Regarding the seizing of ships (to control them), what about this (a complex post-combat effect):

- If there are enemy ships alive after combat and allied marine troop parts, calculate some probabilities of board-success for each marine part based on the numbers of enemy functioning flaks/interceptors and the number of allied marine troop parts in the system, and roll a dice for each one to see if it hits, and in that case confront onboard enemy crew+marines against boarding marines in a planet-invasion like combat.
But I don't think that is possible, and it would certainly be better to adapt combat mechanics instead.
I think you are right, if the post-combat effect would get that complex it makes more sense to reuse the combat mechanics because else one would have to reimplement a lot of of combat mechanics. Adding effects on hitting would not be very big and would allow a lot of things to be implemented. I was once entertaining the idea of arcade-like monsters which act differently in the progression of combat (the arcade monsters would had usually a scripted sequence of moves/firing weapons) and would be more complex mini-puzzles (so it would be possible to take them out with low-cost if you do the right ship/fleet design; and yes the AI would already know the answers).
E.g. one such monster could start with high shields, spawning some kind of fighters; as soon as there are fighters around it drops the shield partly and charges the big gun. If all its fighters are down, it fires the big gun. If there are more combat bouts, restart the cycle. I am sure you see a different ways of approaching this thingy. (This specific monster would actually not need extra effects)

For the marines I guess i would prefer rather a subduing than seizing effect: if a marine fighter hits, the target gets a ENEMY_ON_BOARD tag which prevents its weapons from shooting in that combat or simply setting the weapons' damage to zero instead. This would be cleaned before the next combat happens.

What i would like about seizing: it would be one way to have access to higher-tech than one currently has.

What i would hate about seizing: probably too randonmly powerful. But i do not have experience about such effects, so i may be wrong here.

And now something completely different: The poll is closed and i started implementing in
TopmostMatchesCondition branch / PR#2384.

I will implement the options with 4 or more votes

Code: Select all

// Bombers and heavy Bombers
combatTargets = And [
        [[COMBAT_TARGETS_VISIBLE_ENEMY]]
        OrderedAlternativesOf [
            [[COMBAT_TARGETS_NOT_DESTROYED_SHIP]]
            Fighter
        ]
]

Code: Select all

combatTargets = And [                             // Interceptors
        [[COMBAT_TARGETS_VISIBLE_ENEMY]]          // Consider only visible enemies as target
        OrderedAlternativesOf [
            And [                                 // Target Bombers and Heavy Bombers first
                Fighter
                Or [
                   DesignHasPart name = "FT_HANGAR_3"
                   DesignHasPart name = "FT_HANGAR_4"
                ]
            ]
            Fighter
            [[COMBAT_TARGETS_NOT_DESTROYED_SHIP]] // If no fighters: target enemy ships
        ]
    ]
I do not see a way to target bombers directly currently(possible since edit 3) and more importantly the TopmostMatches condition does not work yet. I asked for help by the others about implementing conditions in the PR#2384.(working since edit 2)
I came up with targeting the enemy fighters with the highest attack value using MaximumNumberOf. The number of targets is determined by the count of own interceptors in that battle multiplied with a spread factor of 1.2. This means if you have 10 interceptors in battle, all enemy fighters are sorted by their attack value and the topmost 12 enemy fighters will be used for the random choice of a target. This means that interceptors will probably will waste few shots and probably shoot down quite a number of the most dangerous enemies. If there are no enemy fighters left, enemy ships are targeted using the new OrderedAlternativesOf condition.(dropped since edit 3)

Using MaximumNumberOf did not work as there is no way to Count your own fighters in battle (see Issue #2394).

So i extended DesignHasPart to support fighters and target bombers and heavy bombers directly.
I am pretty sure that interceptors should also target fighter fighters, but will see after playtesting feedback.

edit1: rename TopmostMatches -> OrderedAlternativesOf

edit2: specify bomber targetting

edit3: had to change implementation away from MaximumNumberOf because of Issue #2394
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

Post Reply