Technological victory rework

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Krikkitone
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Technological victory rework

#1 Post by Krikkitone » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:36 am

Edit by Oberlus: I'm bringing to a dedicated thread this interesting discussion about the technological victory rework proposed by labgnome, from here.

labgnome wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:45 pm
The ascension path policy will be unlocked at the third-to-last tier, and will be necessary to be able to build the ascension path building. The ascension path building will be unlocked at the next-to-last tier and be necessary for the ascension path species transformation, which will probably be an influence project. All ascension path species have "great" stats, cannot colonize (can only expand by transformation projects), and are telepathic (so they get the psy-dom focus). Once you have converted your entire population (with some possible exception, like exobots) you will get the technology victory. This will make the technology victory more involved and costly, and not just something you are "handed" by finishing out the tech tree.
on thought on the Ascension species, they should NOT have great stats, they should have terrible stats.. essentially every planet you convert to an ascension species should be a net negative for your empire.... until you get all of them and win*

*an alternative... ascension species have great stats, but they have the option of putting their planet on "ascension focus" generating no other output other than ascension points..... the When your "Ascension points" = Total population -"Ascended population"/2 then you ascend

OK more detailed:

Policy1 allows Building1

Policy2+Supply connection to Building1 or Building 2 allows Planets set Ascension Focus

Ascension Focus worlds will create no output but transform their species into the Ascension species (good stats) [takes fixed number of turns, reduced if building 1 or 2 is within 1 jump]

An Ascension focus world with an Ascension species creates no output but generates Ascension points (boosted if building 1 or 2 is within 1 jump)

When Ascension points + Ascension population/2 = Total population
All population Ascends and you win

Policy1 unlocked at third from last
Building 1 unlocked at second from last (requires Policy1 to build, Building1 tech requires Policy1 tech)...Very expensive building.."wonder" level
Policy2 unlocked at last tier (requires Policy1, tech requires building1 tech)...Very expensive policy
Building2 unlocked at last tier (requires Building1, tech requires building1 tech).....less expensive than building 1, but still expensive, way to speed up process

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labgnome
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#2 Post by labgnome » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:50 am

Krikkitone wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:36 am
on thought on the Ascension species, they should NOT have great stats, they should have terrible stats.. essentially every planet you convert to an ascension species should be a net negative for your empire.... until you get all of them and win*
Alternative Proposal: the ascension species have no research, but get good or great stats otherwise. They should for sure be able to defend their planets from invasion, maybe also weak in offensive capabilities.
Krikkitone wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:36 am
Policy1 unlocked at third from last
Building 1 unlocked at second from last (requires Policy1 to build, Building1 tech requires Policy1 tech)...Very expensive building.."wonder" level
Policy2 unlocked at last tier (requires Policy1, tech requires building1 tech)...Very expensive policy
Building2 unlocked at last tier (requires Building1, tech requires building1 tech).....less expensive than building 1, but still expensive, way to speed up process
I'd keep it at one policy and one building, at least to start off. I'm hesitant to introduce a totally new focus and "ascension points" as that seems a bit much. The simpler the start the better. The idea is that you win by converting your empire into one of these ascended species. I have thought about a "take the player off the map" possibility, but that has had mixed reception.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#3 Post by Oberlus » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:22 pm

labgnome wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:50 am
the ascension species
I like very much this idea for the research victory. But got some buts:
Removing research from the ascension species looks like a "no problem at all". If I'm pursuing that kind of victory, I'm supposed to be good at research and have many useful techs (i.e. no need for other techs in order to defend himself from conquering-focused empires). No problem at all unless the species ascension process requires research to complete? In that case, the last planet to ascend will be the slowest one, relying only in its own production (and on any available flat bonuses unless the ascension trait removes them too).
Having great stats... If it is overall wining the game (no imminent threat for the empire), having great stats would accelerate the process and make it easier to complete (harder for enemies to halt). If it is not winning neither loosing, the great stats would give it a great advantage, so great as to forgive about research victory and better try to surpass your enemies' forces. If it is losing, the great stats could be necessary to help it survive until ascension. Not sure is all this is good or bad, but for sure something should be done to avoid that empires looking for conquest victory use the great stats of the ascending species just to pump more and better armed ships.
Having bad stats, the above is inverted: it would help the losing empires to try and halt the ascension process of the winning empire, but also would make it quite difficult for smaller empires to try that victory path. Not an easy question, I think.

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labgnome
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#4 Post by labgnome » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:25 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:22 pm
I like very much this idea for the research victory. But got some buts:
Removing research from the ascension species looks like a "no problem at all". If I'm pursuing that kind of victory, I'm supposed to be good at research and have many useful techs (i.e. no need for other techs in order to defend himself from conquering-focused empires). No problem at all unless the species ascension process requires research to complete? In that case, the last planet to ascend will be the slowest one, relying only in its own production (and on any available flat bonuses unless the ascension trait removes them too).
I am thinking that the actual ascension process will just be the conversion, but each of the three techs will be fairly expensive. So no research cost to actually ascend. For sure great (or maybe ultimate) planetary defenses, troops and the like so a conquest-oriented neighbor can't just grab them up easily.
Oberlus wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:22 pm
Having great stats... If it is overall wining the game (no imminent threat for the empire), having great stats would accelerate the process and make it easier to complete (harder for enemies to halt). If it is not winning neither loosing, the great stats would give it a great advantage, so great as to forgive about research victory and better try to surpass your enemies' forces. If it is losing, the great stats could be necessary to help it survive until ascension. Not sure is all this is good or bad, but for sure something should be done to avoid that empires looking for conquest victory use the great stats of the ascending species just to pump more and better armed ships.
Having bad stats, the above is inverted: it would help the losing empires to try and halt the ascension process of the winning empire, but also would make it quite difficult for smaller empires to try that victory path. Not an easy question, I think.
My feeling is that smaller/taller empires should be able to shoot for the tech victory, so I suppose I am in favor of great stats. In fact it might not be a bad idea to scale the transformation cost with the number of colonized planets making it more costly for larger empires. Maybe also give them bad or no offensive troops, so they easily can't switch and get the conquest victory half-way through ascension.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#5 Post by Krikkitone » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 am

labgnome wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:50 am
Krikkitone wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:36 am
on thought on the Ascension species, they should NOT have great stats, they should have terrible stats.. essentially every planet you convert to an ascension species should be a net negative for your empire.... until you get all of them and win*
Alternative Proposal: the ascension species have no research, but get good or great stats otherwise. They should for sure be able to defend their planets from invasion, maybe also weak in offensive capabilities.
I agree we want to make it simple, but to not have it be a "Build X building and wait to win", we should have ways of speeding it up / challenges

So...
You need the Policy active to build the Building,
With both the Policy active and the Building owned, and the final tech, your population starts converting.
If the Policy is inactive, population doesn't convert

Now how do each of these Help Speed this up
Some thoughts

Influence->What you actually Spend to convert the population
Research->Repeating "Ascendance Tech" that increases the conversion rate by +10% each (minimum turns=1)
Production->Repeats of the Building that increases the conversion rate in their system/nearby (+100% if supply connected in 1 lane distance)


I definitely the "ascending" population should be "Stuck" ie it doesn't help you do anything but ascend/maintain itself... so

0 colonization, 0 offensive capability,
low/0 research/production (so some ability to support defense)
great defense, great influence*, special happiness*

*Minimum % of total Influence investment in Conversion =25%+%Ascended/2 so as you get more population ascended that extra bonus influence has to go to speeding up the ascension
If you don't have that the Ascending population becomes unhappy...when an ascending world successfully rebels it ascends, vanishing.


So Tech Wise
X: Policy
X+1: Building (1 required to allow for conversion)
X+2: Buildings provides boosts if nearby
Repeating: Increase rate


This makes for a very Tall bonus "Research" win

1. More Influence/Population is going to be more available to a smaller empire (less maintenance is needed... you will convert faster and more easily meet the demands of the Ascending population for ascension investment)

2. The buildings provide boosts based on area

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labgnome
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#6 Post by labgnome » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:20 am

Krikkitone wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 am
You need the Policy active to build the Building,
With both the Policy active and the Building owned, and the final tech, your population starts converting.
If the Policy is inactive, population doesn't convert
That's what I am thinking. Policy -> building -> conversion
Krikkitone wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 am
Influence->What you actually Spend to convert the population (worlds prioritized by closeness to a Building, higher populations first as a tiebreaker)
Research->Repeating "Ascendance Tech" that increases the conversion rate by +10% each (minimum turns=1)
Production->Repeats of the Building that increases the conversion rate in their system/nearby (say non stacking +100% in system +25% in neighboring systems)
Maybe have a restriction on the ascension buildings be a certain number of jumps away from each other.
Krikkitone wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 am
I definitely the "ascending" population should be "Stuck" ie it doesn't help you do anything but ascend/maintain itself... so

0 colonization, 0 offensive capability,
low/0 research/production (so some ability to support defense)
great defense, great influence*, special happiness*
So you are thinking they shouldn't be able to build ships? Maybe give them ultimate defenses?
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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