Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Oberlus
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#91 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:35 am

labgnome wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:23 pm
Maybe I am mis-remembering
You can check the FOCS files and their change history.
One Idea for Enclave of the Void, from way back, was to have it earlier in the tech tree and work more like the Industrial Center. So the bonus starts small but you can upgrade it.
We need to focus. If it's going to be on a "bonus theme that is unlocked late game and that has OP stuff", to do what you suggest we shall drop the bonus theme idea (only because some player don't like drawbacks?):
I think "OP stuff" goes well with the Void theme. The most destructive weapons, the most powerful stealth parts, the strongest shield, etc. And also the drawbacks stuff: you are dealing with dark and terrible forces.
But the whole idea of the themes and the reworked weapons system is motivated (for me) firstly to avoid the current boredome of "there is most powerful shield, weapon, hull, engine... and so everybody does the same late game". If you make something OP and don't give it a drawback to compensate, then the whole plan flushes down the toilet.
Small and really fast. The opposite of the massive hulls, that Mech gets.
There isn't enough meat in there. Too similar to energy hulls.
I was also thinking that the habitability boosts for self-sustaining metabolism could go here.
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
Maybe the monster domestication could go into psionics?
It synergises well with the organic hulls and weapons, plus it's just one single tech.
Can you think of a psionic theme with around 36 techs not including refinements using the influence projects and policies already sketched out plus any techy stuff you like to be on the theme?

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#92 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am

labgnome wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:23 pm
I never paid proper attention to this. What are or would be the distinctive characteristics of a flux hull line?
Small and really fast. The opposite of the massive hulls, that Mech gets. I was also thinking that the habitability boosts for self-sustaining metabolism could go here.
Just as info what is currently distinctive about the flux hulls: comes with batteries included but inflexible. There is only one type of slot (flux drive: external, flux bubble: internal, not existing flux core: core) so you can't do combos. But you get a decent craft for the cost at the time you can research it without having to research extra tech e.g. the flux bubble (tier 1) has good structure (like equipped with tier 2 armor) but a hull with great armor (e.g. tier 3 armor) would be better cost-wise.

Also one direction one could take the hull line is auto-upgrade (like its stealth).

Flux core hull would have either one or two core slots (and no internal/external slots). The one slot would probably give lowest possible access to using core slots. The two slot variant would be rather unique I guess.

The importance of the flux bubble: it is the device which allows early hidden colony ships for distributed empires. Whatever happens there should be a hull which is able to do this.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#93 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:10 am

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am
what is currently distinctive about the flux hulls: comes with batteries included but inflexible
I would need some fluff distinctive feature for the hulls themselves. I'll try to explain:
Standard hulls are empty vessels, built by assembling together innert (usually metalic and ceramic) parts. Some electronics and simple computing parts are the most complex stuff you find in them.
Organic hulls are grown, instead of built, made of living flesh instead of innert materials. The can regenerate their wounds, they have functions that are carried out by the organism itself and not the crew (if any).
Robotic hulls are... robotic, like transformers or the cylon ships, that is like a living (but robotic) space organism. So they ir similar to standard hulls in that they are made of metal, but they are more similar to the organic hulls in terms of how is that system (more dynamic, adaptive, autonomous).
Energy hulls are made of confined (compressed) energy, using force fields to keep it together instead of the nuclear forces that keep together solid structures. That makes them really light and fast but weak.
Asteroid hulls are made of rocks, strong rocks that were made in the cores of other planets.

Flux hulls are... standard hulls with built-in battery, stealth and a engine that folds/compress space-time as its form of propulsion. IMO, this does not make the hulls distinctive enough, the same way I don't think asteroids with drones (or organic with rock armour) wouldn't make a separate hull line from regular asteroids (or regular organics).
What I see here is a line of engines (to mount on any hull line): faster but bad for stealth. And maybe a line of stealth parts. Both could do fine in Void theme, the engines also good in Energy theme (space-time folding looks like an energy, force-field stuff).

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#94 Post by labgnome » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:31 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:35 am
We need to focus. If it's going to be on a "bonus theme that is unlocked late game and that has OP stuff", to do what you suggest we shall drop the bonus theme idea (only because some player don't like drawbacks?):
I think "OP stuff" goes well with the Void theme. The most destructive weapons, the most powerful stealth parts, the strongest shield, etc. And also the drawbacks stuff: you are dealing with dark and terrible forces.
But the whole idea of the themes and the reworked weapons system is motivated (for me) firstly to avoid the current boredome of "there is most powerful shield, weapon, hull, engine... and so everybody does the same late game". If you make something OP and don't give it a drawback to compensate, then the whole plan flushes down the toilet.
Maybe the ship parts could reduce hull-points?
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
I mean it's an idea that's been around for a while. I was thinking especially if we are going to use my Civil Engineering & Environmental Adaptation policies.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#95 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:48 pm

labgnome wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:31 pm
Maybe the ship parts could reduce hull-points?
I like that!
labgnome wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:31 pm
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
I mean it's an idea that's been around for a while. I was thinking especially if we are going to use my Civil Engineering & Environmental Adaptation policies.
I need to refresh my mind, sorry. Link to those, please?

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#96 Post by labgnome » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:48 pm
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
I mean it's an idea that's been around for a while. I was thinking especially if we are going to use my Civil Engineering & Environmental Adaptation policies.
I need to refresh my mind, sorry. Link to those, please?
viewtopic.php?p=96517#p96517
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#97 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 pm

labgnome wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm
viewtopic.php?p=96517#p96517
Thank you.

"Organic Environmental Adaptation policy will initially unlock colonization of adequate environment planets for organic species"
So we get six techs for each of the current habitability boost techs (one for organic, one for gaseous, etc. maybe not all), but little to no new gameplay. Although...

With the suggestion, if you have three metabolisms you need to research three techs branches. If you have only one, one tech branch is enough
With current system, for three metabolisms as well as for one you just need one tech branch.
Your suggestion makes harder or slower to have extra variety of species. This can be seen as a gameplay change, but very small and not really exciting. And we aim higher, at species-empires interaction, to get many-species-is-harder, that will work way better for that purpose.

I think I prefer to stick to one single tech for all the metabolisms, simplicity. Although some tech tied to the organic/lithic/robotic specials that only affects such metabolisms seems acceptable.

Would you open a poll (for a month at least) to see people's opinion on this?

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#98 Post by Vezzra » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 pm
Your suggestion makes harder or slower to have extra variety of species. This can be seen as a gameplay change, but very small and not really exciting.
It could make more sense if the metabolisms would (roughly) correspond to specific "corners" of the planetary environments wheel. E.g. organic -> desert, terran, ocean; robotic -> tundra, barren, radiated; lithic -> swamp, toxic, inferno or something like that. In that case, to be able to colonize more environments comfortably, you'd need to invest more research, being able to colonize everything would become harder.
I think I prefer to stick to one single tech for all the metabolisms, simplicity.
In that case we'd need to revisit all the habitability improving techs and more or less completely change the fluff for most of them, as most of them had originally been designed with organic species in mind. "Xenogenetics" doesn't make any sense for a robotic race... ;)

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#99 Post by labgnome » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:15 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 pm
Your suggestion makes harder or slower to have extra variety of species. This can be seen as a gameplay change, but very small and not really exciting.
It could make more sense if the metabolisms would (roughly) correspond to specific "corners" of the planetary environments wheel. E.g. organic -> desert, terran, ocean; robotic -> tundra, barren, radiated; lithic -> swamp, toxic, inferno or something like that. In that case, to be able to colonize more environments comfortably, you'd need to invest more research, being able to colonize everything would become harder.
I'd probably suggest organic get terran, ocean, swamp, robotic get barren, tundra, desert and lithic get toxic, inferno, radiated. But really this doesn't seem applicable to the current system we have, unless we want to do a massive re-working of species, and probably the metabolism specials too. Plus it strikes me as a little constraining for future species design.
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