Themed tech categories (Help wanted)

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#91 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:35 am

labgnome wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:23 pm
Maybe I am mis-remembering
You can check the FOCS files and their change history.
One Idea for Enclave of the Void, from way back, was to have it earlier in the tech tree and work more like the Industrial Center. So the bonus starts small but you can upgrade it.
We need to focus. If it's going to be on a "bonus theme that is unlocked late game and that has OP stuff", to do what you suggest we shall drop the bonus theme idea (only because some player don't like drawbacks?):
I think "OP stuff" goes well with the Void theme. The most destructive weapons, the most powerful stealth parts, the strongest shield, etc. And also the drawbacks stuff: you are dealing with dark and terrible forces.
But the whole idea of the themes and the reworked weapons system is motivated (for me) firstly to avoid the current boredome of "there is most powerful shield, weapon, hull, engine... and so everybody does the same late game". If you make something OP and don't give it a drawback to compensate, then the whole plan flushes down the toilet.
Small and really fast. The opposite of the massive hulls, that Mech gets.
There isn't enough meat in there. Too similar to energy hulls.
I was also thinking that the habitability boosts for self-sustaining metabolism could go here.
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
Maybe the monster domestication could go into psionics?
It synergises well with the organic hulls and weapons, plus it's just one single tech.
Can you think of a psionic theme with around 36 techs not including refinements using the influence projects and policies already sketched out plus any techy stuff you like to be on the theme?

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#92 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am

labgnome wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:23 pm
I never paid proper attention to this. What are or would be the distinctive characteristics of a flux hull line?
Small and really fast. The opposite of the massive hulls, that Mech gets. I was also thinking that the habitability boosts for self-sustaining metabolism could go here.
Just as info what is currently distinctive about the flux hulls: comes with batteries included but inflexible. There is only one type of slot (flux drive: external, flux bubble: internal, not existing flux core: core) so you can't do combos. But you get a decent craft for the cost at the time you can research it without having to research extra tech e.g. the flux bubble (tier 1) has good structure (like equipped with tier 2 armor) but a hull with great armor (e.g. tier 3 armor) would be better cost-wise.

Also one direction one could take the hull line is auto-upgrade (like its stealth).

Flux core hull would have either one or two core slots (and no internal/external slots). The one slot would probably give lowest possible access to using core slots. The two slot variant would be rather unique I guess.

The importance of the flux bubble: it is the device which allows early hidden colony ships for distributed empires. Whatever happens there should be a hull which is able to do this.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#93 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:10 am

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am
what is currently distinctive about the flux hulls: comes with batteries included but inflexible
I would need some fluff distinctive feature for the hulls themselves. I'll try to explain:
Standard hulls are empty vessels, built by assembling together innert (usually metalic and ceramic) parts. Some electronics and simple computing parts are the most complex stuff you find in them.
Organic hulls are grown, instead of built, made of living flesh instead of innert materials. The can regenerate their wounds, they have functions that are carried out by the organism itself and not the crew (if any).
Robotic hulls are... robotic, like transformers or the cylon ships, that is like a living (but robotic) space organism. So they ir similar to standard hulls in that they are made of metal, but they are more similar to the organic hulls in terms of how is that system (more dynamic, adaptive, autonomous).
Energy hulls are made of confined (compressed) energy, using force fields to keep it together instead of the nuclear forces that keep together solid structures. That makes them really light and fast but weak.
Asteroid hulls are made of rocks, strong rocks that were made in the cores of other planets.

Flux hulls are... standard hulls with built-in battery, stealth and a engine that folds/compress space-time as its form of propulsion. IMO, this does not make the hulls distinctive enough, the same way I don't think asteroids with drones (or organic with rock armour) wouldn't make a separate hull line from regular asteroids (or regular organics).
What I see here is a line of engines (to mount on any hull line): faster but bad for stealth. And maybe a line of stealth parts. Both could do fine in Void theme, the engines also good in Energy theme (space-time folding looks like an energy, force-field stuff).

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#94 Post by labgnome » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:31 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:35 am
We need to focus. If it's going to be on a "bonus theme that is unlocked late game and that has OP stuff", to do what you suggest we shall drop the bonus theme idea (only because some player don't like drawbacks?):
I think "OP stuff" goes well with the Void theme. The most destructive weapons, the most powerful stealth parts, the strongest shield, etc. And also the drawbacks stuff: you are dealing with dark and terrible forces.
But the whole idea of the themes and the reworked weapons system is motivated (for me) firstly to avoid the current boredome of "there is most powerful shield, weapon, hull, engine... and so everybody does the same late game". If you make something OP and don't give it a drawback to compensate, then the whole plan flushes down the toilet.
Maybe the ship parts could reduce hull-points?
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
I mean it's an idea that's been around for a while. I was thinking especially if we are going to use my Civil Engineering & Environmental Adaptation policies.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#95 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:48 pm

labgnome wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:31 pm
Maybe the ship parts could reduce hull-points?
I like that!
labgnome wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:31 pm
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
I mean it's an idea that's been around for a while. I was thinking especially if we are going to use my Civil Engineering & Environmental Adaptation policies.
I need to refresh my mind, sorry. Link to those, please?

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#96 Post by labgnome » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:48 pm
I don't know if we should separate habitability boosts by metabolism.
I mean it's an idea that's been around for a while. I was thinking especially if we are going to use my Civil Engineering & Environmental Adaptation policies.
I need to refresh my mind, sorry. Link to those, please?
viewtopic.php?p=96517#p96517
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#97 Post by Oberlus » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 pm

labgnome wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm
viewtopic.php?p=96517#p96517
Thank you.

"Organic Environmental Adaptation policy will initially unlock colonization of adequate environment planets for organic species"
So we get six techs for each of the current habitability boost techs (one for organic, one for gaseous, etc. maybe not all), but little to no new gameplay. Although...

With the suggestion, if you have three metabolisms you need to research three techs branches. If you have only one, one tech branch is enough
With current system, for three metabolisms as well as for one you just need one tech branch.
Your suggestion makes harder or slower to have extra variety of species. This can be seen as a gameplay change, but very small and not really exciting. And we aim higher, at species-empires interaction, to get many-species-is-harder, that will work way better for that purpose.

I think I prefer to stick to one single tech for all the metabolisms, simplicity. Although some tech tied to the organic/lithic/robotic specials that only affects such metabolisms seems acceptable.

Would you open a poll (for a month at least) to see people's opinion on this?

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5071
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#98 Post by Vezzra » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 pm
Your suggestion makes harder or slower to have extra variety of species. This can be seen as a gameplay change, but very small and not really exciting.
It could make more sense if the metabolisms would (roughly) correspond to specific "corners" of the planetary environments wheel. E.g. organic -> desert, terran, ocean; robotic -> tundra, barren, radiated; lithic -> swamp, toxic, inferno or something like that. In that case, to be able to colonize more environments comfortably, you'd need to invest more research, being able to colonize everything would become harder.
I think I prefer to stick to one single tech for all the metabolisms, simplicity.
In that case we'd need to revisit all the habitability improving techs and more or less completely change the fluff for most of them, as most of them had originally been designed with organic species in mind. "Xenogenetics" doesn't make any sense for a robotic race... ;)

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#99 Post by labgnome » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:15 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:42 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:16 pm
Your suggestion makes harder or slower to have extra variety of species. This can be seen as a gameplay change, but very small and not really exciting.
It could make more sense if the metabolisms would (roughly) correspond to specific "corners" of the planetary environments wheel. E.g. organic -> desert, terran, ocean; robotic -> tundra, barren, radiated; lithic -> swamp, toxic, inferno or something like that. In that case, to be able to colonize more environments comfortably, you'd need to invest more research, being able to colonize everything would become harder.
I'd probably suggest organic get terran, ocean, swamp, robotic get barren, tundra, desert and lithic get toxic, inferno, radiated. But really this doesn't seem applicable to the current system we have, unless we want to do a massive re-working of species, and probably the metabolism specials too. Plus it strikes me as a little constraining for future species design.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#100 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:45 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:10 am
Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am
what is currently distinctive about the flux hulls: comes with batteries included but inflexible
I would need some fluff distinctive feature for the hulls themselves.
Flux propulsion works by manipulating space itself. Building this on a scale necessary for space drives is highly dangerous.

The easiest solution to building a space ship using flux propulsion is a flux engine encapsulating a bubble of undisturbed space in which a space station can be placed (i.e. spatial flux bubble design).

Further research makes it possible to attach tethers anchored to the flux engine which can be used to pull an ordinary space station along (i.e. spatial flux design).

Multi dimensional structure manipulation makes it possible to bend a space bubble in ordinary space into mostly arbitrary shapes allowing to build specialised space ship designs (i.e spatial flux core design).

So flux bubble and core ships are encapsulated by their engine (so no external parts) and spatial flux ships are pulled behind their engine (which precludes internal parts because the tethers only support small crafts).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
JonCST
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#101 Post by JonCST » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:15 pm

Since we're discussing Flux hulls:
Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:55 am
what is currently distinctive about the flux hulls: comes with batteries included but inflexible
I have a dumb question: The Pedia currently claims the Flux ships are "Robotic Line" hulls. In the version i play, although my robotic species can build flux bubble hulls with Robotic Interface shields, they don't contribute to the additive shield.

Are they not actually Robotic Line? Or is it an oversight?

To make the question a little more relevant to the topic, if they currently should contribute to the additive field, will they not be part of Robotic Line hulls after the proposed changes? Will being "enclosed in a spacial flux bubble" make a ship less vulnerable to some types of weapons? More vulnerable?

Thanks.

J

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#102 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:00 pm

JonCST wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:15 pm
I have a dumb question: The Pedia currently claims the Flux ships are "Robotic Line" hulls. In the version i play, although my robotic species can build flux bubble hulls with Robotic Interface shields, they don't contribute to the additive shield.
Hulls which are robotic (and can use the robotic shields):

Code: Select all

 grep -r ROBOTIC_HULL default/scripting/ship_hulls/robotic/
default/scripting/ship_hulls/robotic/SH_LOGITICS_FACILITATOR.focs.txt:    tags = [ "ROBOTIC_HULL" "PEDIA_HULL_LINE_ROBOTIC" "BAD_FUEL_EFFICIENCY" ]
default/scripting/ship_hulls/robotic/SH_NANOROBOTIC.focs.txt:    tags = [ "ROBOTIC_HULL" "PEDIA_HULL_LINE_ROBOTIC" "AVERAGE_FUEL_EFFICIENCY" ]
default/scripting/ship_hulls/robotic/SH_ROBOTIC.focs.txt:    tags = [ "ROBOTIC_HULL" "PEDIA_HULL_LINE_ROBOTIC" "AVERAGE_FUEL_EFFICIENCY" ]
default/scripting/ship_hulls/robotic/SH_SELF_GRAVITATING.focs.txt:    tags = [ "ROBOTIC_HULL" "PEDIA_HULL_LINE_ROBOTIC" "BAD_FUEL_EFFICIENCY" ]
default/scripting/ship_hulls/robotic/SH_TITANIC.focs.txt:    tags = [ "ROBOTIC_HULL" "PEDIA_HULL_LINE_ROBOTIC" "BAD_FUEL_EFFICIENCY" ]
Hulls techs which claim to be robotic line

Code: Select all

default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_CONTGRAV_MAINT.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_MASSPROP_SPEC.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_MIDCOMB_LOG.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_MIL_ROBO_CONT.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_NANOROBO_MAINT.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_SPACE_FLUX_BUBBLE.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_SPACE_FLUX_DRIVE.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
default/scripting/techs/ship_hulls/robotic/SHP_TRANSSPACE_DRIVE.focs.txt:    tags = [ "PEDIA_ROBOTIC_HULL_TECHS" ]
As transpatial hull and spatial flux hull do not have internal parts, the robo shield issue does not manifest. Bubble flux hull is in the robotic line because the spatial flux drive was in in the robotic line.

I guess bubble flux hull could be interesting as external shield unit. robo with robo shield and 4 free external slots costs 110PP, flux bubble with robo shield costs 87 PP (so about 20% cheaper, 20% worse structure, bit faster, maybe more stealthy, more fuel). Would this make any sense playwise?

JonCST wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:15 pm
To make the question a little more relevant to the topic, if they currently should contribute to the additive field, will they not be part of Robotic Line hulls after the proposed changes? Will being "enclosed in a spacial flux bubble" make a ship less vulnerable to some types of weapons? More vulnerable?
As far as I got the only proposed change is to add fluff or remove the flux hulls. The fluff for flux bubble already puts the ship inside the engine. There is currently no external engine combat effect and I do not think there has to be one. The only thing actually possible in-combat would be adding a shield bonus (e.g. +1) and changing structure value. Also one could make the bubble hull cheaper and lower the maximum structure. Or do something fancy like lower maximum structure but faster healing (or the opposite).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#103 Post by labgnome » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:06 pm

JonCST wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:15 pm
Are they not actually Robotic Line? Or is it an oversight?
They are technically currently part of the robotic hull line. However the robotic hull line is somewhat of a "wastebin" taxon really covering everything that isn't organic, asteroid or energy hulls. The "core" robotic hulls are really the robotic, nanorobotic and logistics facilitator hulls. The massive (just really big) and flux (small, really fast, and stealthy) hull sub-lines have really been their own separate things. So for that reason there has been talk for a while of breaking it up. So in a way yes it is something of an oversight.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
JonCST
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#104 Post by JonCST » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:53 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:00 pm

I guess bubble flux hull could be interesting as external shield unit. [...] Would this make any sense playwise?
I dunno if it "makes sense", but obviously i tried to do it :?

It might make more sense to push them (SFH and SFB) under energy hulls. Or not. If i hadn't seen the Pedia tag as "robotic", i wouldn't have worried about it. I do think RI:S is overly expensive for the number of units it requires and the return it gives, but maybe that was because it was defined before mines and fighters bypassed shields?

Random thought: Is it the ship, or is it the robotic crew? Perhaps RI:S should be nerfed a bit, and made available as a researchable tech which grants the capability to any robotically crewed ship? Maybe factored by hull size, under the idea that the larger the hull, the more robotic crew it has? That would prevent anybody building hundreds of scouts as stand-alone shield generators.
Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:00 pm
As far as I got the only proposed change is to add fluff or remove the flux hulls. The fluff for flux bubble already puts the ship inside the engine. There is currently no external engine combat effect and I do not think there has to be one. The only thing actually possible in-combat would be adding a shield bonus (e.g. +1) and changing structure value. Also one could make the bubble hull cheaper and lower the maximum structure. Or do something fancy like lower maximum structure but faster healing (or the opposite).
I get that SFB were originally intended as a one-trick pony: to allow early, "sneaky" colonization by species with bad supply or low frequency habitats, like the Sly. And, if that's what they need to remain, that's fine. I just thought of the use, and tried it, because of the Pedia entry. It's an off-label usage, and maybe just the description needs to change so there's no surprises. Logical consistency is nice, but it's an established game philosophy not to stress it too much at the expense of other game goals. It can be avoided through well documented Handwavium.

J.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#105 Post by Oberlus » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:20 am

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:00 pm
As far as I got the only proposed change is to add fluff or remove the flux hulls. The fluff for flux bubble already puts the ship inside the engine.
I'm not keen to remove flux hulls, at most rearranging them.

The space-time manipulation thingy of these engines (Alcubier?) is not about having the engine outside the ship (floating around?) but about causing a space-time thingy around the ship with the engine inside the ship.
These engines are FTL engines (has any other engines in game?). Not good for tactical maneuvering.
The hulls themselves do not add anything distinctive that I can appreciate.
Also, it makes little sense to make these hulls stealthy at the same time they are "loud" when using their engines (due to the space-time manipulation). Current fluff is a bit incoherent for me.

Having good hulls for stealth expansion won't be a problem, both Bio and Crystal will have stealth hulls early game. We could repurpouse flux hulls as early fast ships? Or make them OP and put them in Void or Ascension themes?

I thought that having one hull line per theme made sense.

Post Reply