Influence Discussion

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Vezzra
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Re: Influence Discussion

#91 Post by Vezzra » Sun May 12, 2019 3:15 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:54 pm
Regarding species, since we will never be conquering a whole species, we don't need to know the allegiance to my empire of a whole species.
If, as suggested, colonies of the same species have a strong influence on each other, it might very well be important to gain at least some idea how a species as a whole thinks about my empire. So I think it would be necessary to provide the player with some sort of "average"/"summary" or something like that.

Regarding the allegiance of ship crews, having a "species opinion" of my empire is even more important, unless you want to somehow have to keep track of the opinion of each of your ships.

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Re: Influence Discussion

#92 Post by Vezzra » Sun May 12, 2019 3:20 pm

Krikkitone wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:12 pm
This indicates we may want some type of separate Security ranking (so opinion can go down, but rebellions don't happen...ie Brutal repression would be -30 Opinion and +40 Security...Opinion would stay over time, Security would only apply while you owned the world, and could easily be disrupted-ie Security could go to 0 if combat actually broke out on the colony..ie once a rebellion starts it gets big fast)
Stellaris has "Stability" for that, and I like that concept a bit more (IMO more general than "Security"). But basically the same idea: you can get high "stability" either by making the population like you, or by employing more aggressive/oppressive methods to ensure your subjects cooperation.

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labgnome
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Re: Influence Discussion

#93 Post by labgnome » Sun May 12, 2019 10:52 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:20 pm
Krikkitone wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:12 pm
This indicates we may want some type of separate Security ranking (so opinion can go down, but rebellions don't happen...ie Brutal repression would be -30 Opinion and +40 Security...Opinion would stay over time, Security would only apply while you owned the world, and could easily be disrupted-ie Security could go to 0 if combat actually broke out on the colony..ie once a rebellion starts it gets big fast)
Stellaris has "Stability" for that, and I like that concept a bit more (IMO more general than "Security"). But basically the same idea: you can get high "stability" either by making the population like you, or by employing more aggressive/oppressive methods to ensure your subjects cooperation.
So I'm not opposed to a change to "stability" per-say, but I think that the current "happiness" mechanic might work well enough. I am a bit concerned as to how this might interact with some of the other concepts being discussed like the influence projects and species values. IE: is saying something effects happiness (which we've been using) functionally the same as saying it effects stability, and will this sort of change-over make sense with respect to these things. I generally don't want an excessive number of meters to keep track of. Maybe the number of troops on a planet could function as the "security" meter, without needing a new meter. Maybe we could have influence projects that could boost the number of troops on a specific planet?

Mind you we can just call it whatever we like, "realism" or even "intuitiveness" be darned so long as it's not complete nonsense and we provide adequate explanation in the 'pedia.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#94 Post by labgnome » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:23 pm

Given emerging consensus on things like species opinion and stability I will be re-working some of my ideas around influence projects. Namely I am thinking of calling them "Special Projects" SP, or just "Projects", so the projects aren't confused with Influence Points IP. Also I may be making a 4th category of Special Project called "Civic Projects", that will be an "other" category for special projects that don't fit nicely into Espionage, Terror or Propaganda. The classification system I envision is as follows...
  • Espionage Projects: for gaining information, hiding and stealing things. Revealing production, research and influence queues, reveling fleet and planet locations. Stealing technology & capturing outposts. Declaring fleets or planets top-secret, & hiding them from being revealed through foreign espionage.
  • Terror Projects: for destroying things, and stability at the expanse of opinion. Destroying buildings, populations and fleets
  • Propaganda Projects: for influencing opinion, stability & gaining new species. Peaceful acquisition of native planets. Raising a species, or group of species opinion of your empire, or lowering it of a foreign empire. Raising stability of a planet in your empire. Lowering the stability of a planet, or multiple planets in another empire.
  • Civic Projects: other influence projects. Making new colonies from outposts. Moving the imperial palace & building or moving sector capitols. Trade missions (stockpile transfers), gifting fleets or planets to foreign empires.
A full list will be upcoming shortly assuming that the Opinion and Stability topic doesn't see anymore activity. I am hoping this will be a foundation for influence-based Special Projects in Free Orion.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#95 Post by labgnome » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am

Espionage Projects
Espionage projects are all about information and stealing. I flipped them names of the probe and investigation projects as they made a bit more sense to me the other way around.
ProjectTurnsRepeatingDirectionTargetEffect
InfiltrationMultipleNoExternalEmpirereveals planets
ReconnaissanceMultipleNoExternalEmpirereveals fleets
ProbeMultiple - distance basedNoExternalPlanetreveals buildings
*Covert Research OpsSingleYesExternalEmpirereveals research queue
*Covert Production OpsSingleYesExternalEmpirereveals production queue
*Covert Influence OpsSingleYesExternalEmpirereveals influence queue
InvestigationMultipleNoInternalPlanetreveals active foreign influence projects
*Steal TechnologyMultipleNoExternalEmpiregives technology
Co-opt OutpostMultiple - distance basedNoExternalPlanet - Outpostgives outpost
**Pirate StockpileSingleNoExternalEmpiretransfers from target stockpile to your own
Top-Secret PlanetSingleYesInternalPlanethides planet from infiltration
Top-Secret FleetSingleYesInternalFleethides fleet from reconnaissance
Counter Espionage MissionSingleYesInternalPlanetcounters all espionage projects
*Counter Espionage OperationSingleYesInternalForeign Empirecounters espionage projects by empire
*requires technology
-Covert Operations
-Mass Operations

**requires policy
-Privateering

Terror Projects
Terror projects are all about destruction, killing and suppression.
ProjectTurnsRepeatingDirectionTargetEffect
Building DestructionMultiple - distance basedNoExternalTargetdestroys building
Fleet DestructionMultiple - distance basedNoExternalTargetdestroys fleet
*(Metabolism) Mass-DestructionMultiple - distance basedYesExternalPlanetreduces population
Sabotage ResearchSingleYesExternalPlanetmajor reduction in research output
Sabotage ProductionSingleYesExternalPlanetmajor reduction in production output
Sabotage InfluenceSingleYesExternalPlanetmajor reduction in influence output
**Disrupt ResearchSingleYesExternalEmpireminor reduction in research output
**Disrupt ProductionSingleYesExternalEmpireminor reduction in production output
**Disrupt InfluenceSingleYesExternalEmpireminor reduction in influence output
Suppress DissentSingleYesInternalPlanetincreases stability & reduces opinion
*Suppress (Species) Mass-DissentSingleYesInternalSpeciesincreases stability & reduces opinion
Shock-TroopsSingleYesInternalPlanetflat bonus to troops
(Species) InquisitionMultipleNoInternalSpeciesreveals all foreign influence projects & reduces opinion
Counter Terror MissionSingleYesInternalPlanetcounters all foreign terror projects
**Counter Terror OperationSingleYesInternalEmpirecounters all foreign terror projects
*requires policy
-Mass Destruction: also requires terror building.
-Targeted Suppression
-Mass Operations

**requires technology
-Societal Disruption

Propaganda Projects
Propaganda projects are about influencing opinion and expanding your influence.
ProjectTurnsRepeatingDirectionTargetEffect
*Moderate Technological UpliftMultipleNoExternalNative Planetapplies moderate-tech natives special & increases opinion
*Advanced Technological UpliftMultipleNoExternalNative Planet - Moderate Techapplies high-tech natives special & increases opinion
Recruitment DriveSingleYesInternalPlanetpop-based bonus to troops
(Species) Mass-Recruitment DriveSingleYesInternalSpeciespop-based bonus to troops
Support DissentSingleYesExternalPlanetreduces stability
*Support (Species) Mass-DissentSingleYesExternalSpeciesreduces stability
*Foreign EmbassySingleYesExternalEmpireincreases opinion
*Foreign ConsulateSingleYesExternalEmpireincreases stability
**Covert MarketingSingleRepeatingExternalWarring Empiredecreases stability & increases opinion
**Promotional MarketingSingleRepeatingExternalNeutral Empiredecreases stability & increases opinion
**Subversive MarketingSingleRepeatingExternalAllied Empiredecreases stability & increases opinion
Support (Value) ValuesSingleYesInternalSpecies (with Value)increases opinion of empire
**Conserve (Environment) EnvironmentSingleYesInternalSpecies (with Environmental Preference)increases opinion of empire
**Encourage (Metabolism) SupremacySingleYesInternalSpecies (with Metabolism)increases opinion of empire
**Promote (Species) SupremacyTurnsRepeatingDirectionSpeciesEffect
Counter Propaganda MissionTurnsRepeatingInternalPlanetcounters propaganda projects
*Counter Propaganda OperationTurnsRepeatingInternalForeign Empirecounters propaganda projects
*requires technology
-Advanced Technological Education
-Transcendent Technological Education
-Translinguistic Thought
-Translinguistic Diplomacy
-Mass Operations

**requires policy
-Cultural Marketing
-Conservation
-Cultural Supremacy

Civic Projects
Civic projects are all other influence projects. They are primarily about peaceful expansion and diplomacy. There are no counter civic projects.
ProjectTurnsRepeatingDirectionTargetEffect
Primitive Diplomatic MissionMultipleNoExternalNative Planetbrings planet into empire
Standard Diplomatic MissionMultipleNoExternalNative Planet - Moderate Techbrings planet into empire
Advanced Diplomatic MissionMultipleNoExternalNative Planet - High Techbrings planet into empire
Support (Species) ColonyMultipleNoInternalPlanet (Outpost)creates new colony of selected species
Move Imperial PalaceMultipleRepeatingInternalPlanet (Colony)re-locates imperial palace
Trade MissionMultiple - distance basedNoDirectionTargetEffect
Allied Trade MissionMultiple - distance basedNoDirectionTargetEffect
Share Research DataSingleYesExternalAllied EmpireEffect
Share Production DataSingleYesExternalAllied EmpireEffect
Share Influence DataSingleYesExternalAllied EmpireEffect
Gift TechnologySingleNoExternalAllied Empiregives technology
Gift OutpostSingleNoExternalAllied Empiretransfers control of planet
Gift ColonySingleNoExternalAllied Empiretransfers control of planet
Gift FleetSingleNoExternalAllied Empiretransfers control of fleet
Surrender TechnologySingleNoExternalWarring Empiregives technology
Surrender OutpostSingleNoExternalWarring Empiretransfers control of planet
Surrender ColonySingleNoExternalWarring Empiretransfers control of planet
Surrender FleetSingleNoExternalWarring Empiretransfers control of fleet
Last edited by labgnome on Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Oberlus
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Re: Influence Discussion

#96 Post by Oberlus » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:59 am

Great work so far, labgnome.



Maybe it is time to flesh out more parts of the related mechanics. My two cents:

How will this be handled in the GUI?

Projects targeted at own planets: clicking on the planet you already get the "building items" window, so influence projects should go here too. We have toggle/tabs to show/hide the ships or the buildings, we would have another one for the influence projects.

Projects targeted at foreign planets: clicking on the planet shows up a "project items" window alike to the "building items" window for our own planets, that lists all projects available in that planet.

Projects targeted at a (single) foreign empire: clicking on the empire name in the empires window to show the corresponding influence (and diplomatic) projects window.

Projects targeted at your own empire: I don't see in your proposal any Internal Empire project (*), so no need for this. Plus I assume this kind of projects could be all gathered under policies.

(*) You have three "Counter XXXX Operation" with direction internal and target foreign empire. Make them target "own empire" so that you don't have to initiate one of each project for each foreign empire (less micro, same results). Or just make this policies.


Specific comments on your proposal:
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Covert Research Ops: reveals research queue
Covert Production Ops: reveals production queue
Covert Influence Ops: reveals influence queue
Three projects for very similar actions. IMO too much detail, that will lead to too much micro and more vertical scrolling when looking for projects. Make it just "Colony investigation" or something, that reveals everything being done in that colony.
GUI implementation: you click on the planet and you see the same windows that you could see if it was your own planet, with actions greyed out.
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Probe, reveals buildings
I love this one. It is so space (opera or not)...
Maybe this one could be a early game version of the previous ones: the probe implies a machine that goes to the planet to take pictures and the such, it could be countered by "shoot down that tiny UFO, please". The covert ops would imply an actual spy, that could get into the planet as a foreign trader or whatever. To take him down you need population surveillance policies and counterespionage, instead of radars and planetary defences. So the counters could be different, harder for the cover ops.
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Investigation, target planet, reveals active foreign influence projects
With hundreds of planets, if I have to start one of this projects on every planet I have, I better go play Startcraft. Make it empire wide. Maybe a policy.
GUI implementation: you get sitreps informing of the planets under effect of foreign influence projects.
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
*Steal Technology Turns Repeating External Target Effect
Co-opt Outpost Multiple - distance based Repeating External Target Effect
**Pirate Stockpile Single No External Empire Effect
Specify effects and targets (are missing).
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Top-Secret Planet Single Yes Internal Planet hides planet from infiltration
Top-Secret Fleet Single Yes Internal Fleet hides fleet from reconnaissance
Micro everywhere.
Let's use stealth as the mechanic to hide stuff from enemies?
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Infiltration, targets Empire, reveals planets
So I start this project, targeted at an empire, and (while it is active or for the rest of the game?) I see all its planets in the galaxy map, am I correct? And this means I would be getting huge parts of the galaxy scouted without having to send a scout or research more detection. Hmmm...

And this was for the Espionage projects. When I get more time I'll revisit the thread and go for the others, if no one else does it sooner.


General comments:

It would be much appreciated (by anyone willing to implement any of this) if the effects are better described. Too much ambiguity right now that doesn't allow the reader to know what you have in mind without asking. We really need here procedural description. Moreover, by giving out full descriptions of the procedure you are getting into the details, imagining how would it be the gameplay, you allow yourself to spot some of the problems that I'm seeing now.

Collapsing some of the very similar projects into single ones is a good idea (less micro, less vertical scrolling looking for the specific project).

For actions that might be required to target at many planets one by one (micro alarm!) you must go for targetting empires (or any other option that does not require repetitive actions).

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Re: Influence Discussion

#97 Post by labgnome » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:59 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:59 am
Great work so far, labgnome.
Thanks!
Maybe it is time to flesh out more parts of the related mechanics. My two cents:
That's what I am looking forward to.
How will this be handled in the GUI?
I don't know how we will handle the GUI, but I like your ideas. I was thinking something that would look a little like the production queue.
(*) You have three "Counter XXXX Operation" with direction internal and target foreign empire. Make them target "own empire" so that you don't have to initiate one of each project for each foreign empire (less micro, same results). Or just make this policies.
If it was self-targeting I'd rather go for a policy. However the idea was that you have to pay more influence the more empires are targeting you with that type of influence project, plus you would need to know who is targeting you to target them back. You would do an investigation or launch an inquisition to find out who to target. The idea is that this would make influence projects more involved, but I can see that it might be micro-managey.

labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Covert Research Ops: reveals research queue
Covert Production Ops: reveals production queue
Covert Influence Ops: reveals influence queue
Three projects for very similar actions. IMO too much detail, that will lead to too much micro and more vertical scrolling when looking for projects. Make it just "Colony investigation" or something, that reveals everything being done in that colony.
GUI implementation: you click on the planet and you see the same windows that you could see if it was your own planet, with actions greyed out.
I don't think that would work for research, as that isn't done on planets, and you will need to know what they are researching to steal technology. Plus why should investigating one planet reveal all of an empire's various projects, research, production and influence? Maybe an empire-targeting general Covert-Ops project. My concern is that reveling all of that information in a single project would be too powerful.
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Probe, reveals buildings
I love this one. It is so space (opera or not)...
Maybe this one could be a early game version of the previous ones: the probe implies a machine that goes to the planet to take pictures and the such, it could be countered by "shoot down that tiny UFO, please". The covert ops would imply an actual spy, that could get into the planet as a foreign trader or whatever. To take him down you need population surveillance policies and counterespionage, instead of radars and planetary defences. So the counters could be different, harder for the cover ops.
I'd prefer counter-projects to be more abstract than that. You can role-play that however you like, but there should be just a counter-project for each group.
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
Investigation, target planet, reveals active foreign influence projects
With hundreds of planets, if I have to start one of this projects on every planet I have, I better go play Startcraft. Make it empire wide. Maybe a policy.
GUI implementation: you get sitreps informing of the planets under effect of foreign influence projects.
So it would reveal all projects effecting the planet, even empire-wide or species-wide projects. Inquisition is species-wide but reduces opinion. The idea is that while you are less likely to find everything, you don't have the problem of reduced opinion.
labgnome wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:40 am
*Steal Technology Turns Repeating External Target Effect
Co-opt Outpost Multiple - distance based Repeating External Target Effect
**Pirate Stockpile Single No External Empire Effect
Specify effects and targets (are missing).
Fixed now.
Let's use stealth as the mechanic to hide stuff from enemies?
The stealth mechanic should factor in to infiltration and reconnaissance. Maybe you can't infiltrate any empire you don't have sufficient detection strength for. The same would go for reveling ships. However this still creates the issue that you might want a way to hide specific planets or fleets from enemy espionage.
It would be much appreciated (by anyone willing to implement any of this) if the effects are better described. Too much ambiguity right now that doesn't allow the reader to know what you have in mind without asking. We really need here procedural description. Moreover, by giving out full descriptions of the procedure you are getting into the details, imagining how would it be the gameplay, you allow yourself to spot some of the problems that I'm seeing now.
I mean this is part of why I am putting this out. You are going to be far better at spotting issues than I am.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#98 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:22 pm

labgnome wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:08 pm
Vezzra wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:32 pm
I don't recall, has this feature already been merged into master, or is development of this feature still going on in an unmerged branch? In the latter case, see above, my proposal is not to merge feature branches at this point anymore.
Geoff is actively developing on the Government branch - I can not comment on the state of it. I think you can choose policies for three kinds of policy slots, there is some influence generation, policy changing cost and maybe influence upkeep cost and some policy content. Definitely AI does not know about influence at all. So I doubt this can be release-ready in two months.
I agree. Again, see above, it's an unmerged feature branch, so I propose not to include this into 0.4.9.
As someone too inept to compile, this makes me just a little sad. I was hoping to get to actually get to see what Free Orion government would be like in the near future :(
You can try it in Linux without compiling: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11173&p=94718

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Re: Influence Discussion

#99 Post by labgnome » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:17 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:22 pm
labgnome wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:08 pm
Vezzra wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:32 pm
I don't recall, has this feature already been merged into master, or is development of this feature still going on in an unmerged branch? In the latter case, see above, my proposal is not to merge feature branches at this point anymore.
I agree. Again, see above, it's an unmerged feature branch, so I propose not to include this into 0.4.9.
As someone too inept to compile, this makes me just a little sad. I was hoping to get to actually get to see what Free Orion government would be like in the near future :(
You can try it in Linux without compiling: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11173&p=94718
If I still had Linux :?
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Re: Influence Discussion

#100 Post by Oberlus » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:55 am

labgnome wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:17 pm
If I still had Linux :?
Oh, that's sad. Motivated enough to try and use a Live installation? (will take up no space on your machine, just a USP pendrive)
https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/t ... -windows#0
Although there are other ways (assuming you're using Windows):
https://www.howtogeek.com/170870/5-ways ... n-windows/

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