Species Values Discussion

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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labgnome
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#46 Post by labgnome » Mon May 27, 2019 6:03 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:20 pm
You either keep track of the opinion of each species on each empire (the opinion is the "meter" affected by the actions of the corresponding empire based on the species values, that are fixed traits; you have Species X Empires meters) or keep track of the empires' alignments (the alignment is the "meter" affected by the empire's actions, the opinion of the species is calculated based on the empire's alignment and the species values; you have Values-pairs X Empires meters). I'm not sure one is better than the other in terms of number of things to keep track of (player-wise), but regarding the number of meters to be calculated, both are comparable but for big games with many species the one based on alignments uses less meters to be updated on every turn (although the GUI would be showing species-empire opinion values calculated on demand).
So firstly, I was presuming that alignments would be tracked in addition to opinion, not instead of opinion. If it's one or the other I'd be firmly on the side of tracking opinion. I think opinion would be more useful to keep track of, plus there is already groundwork laid for it.
I don't know why you say it would not work for species. Maybe you mean it would not record/represent the empires' actions on each species in particular? Like not differentiating between "this empire bombs enemies, he is cool (warlike species)" and "this empire boms enemies, that's cool, but this time this moron bomber us! (warlike species)". That is a drawback indeed, unless you add such distinctions to the opinion calculation (the same that you would do it in the system with species opinions as meters).
Much of the behavior and interactions described really only work for empire's or empire controlling species. It very much seems to be going off of a one species per empire model. It seems to presume each species will be controlling an empire with an ethos, before talking about how they might function in an empire. While it might be able to be adjusted in some ways to account for native species, as they aren't going around building their own empires they functionally have no ethos, or even alignments for that matter. On the other hand
And native species are like other species. Do you think there is need to differentiate their mechanics in terms of values and the such?
I do not think there is a reason to do that, but the problem with the older proposal is that it doesn't seem to take them into account.
He is supposed to have discarded the nonsensical or less interesting combinations. But I agree with you, I prefer something more free and flexible.
Trust me someone will try to make a "nonsensical" combination and break the system. Also, yes a much more flexible system would be preferable, if not necessary.
Well, all this is a bit ambiguous. The "sliding scale" of alignments are the same than we would have with opinions (the slide from neutral to good or bad). The natives can be accounted for in BigJoe5's proposal (unless I missed something). The planet of hats I don't think is a problem here.
Opinions are a different thing from values or alignments. I think that there is definitely something of a system of personality tropes built into the 8 ethos so I think they are kind-of hats.
But for me the key point of that proposal is the listing of possible values.
I can see that, but I'd also counter that much of it is the same sets of values.
Anyway, nothing from what we've been suggesting (including BigJoe5's and all other previous contributors) is simple enough for FO 1.0.
I think I can come up with something, at least as far as values go, that might be.
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Oberlus
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#47 Post by Oberlus » Mon May 27, 2019 6:09 pm

labgnome wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 6:03 pm
I can see that, but I'd also counter that much of it is the same sets of values.
And that's why I said we were reinventing the wheel.
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Krikkitone
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#48 Post by Krikkitone » Mon May 27, 2019 6:52 pm

I think the idea of the value combinations (ie ethos) applying to both species and empires is that an empire/player will attempt to "get the values" that make the species the empire conttrols happy. An empire controlling species with different values would have to tread some middle ground and use generic stability bonuses or make some species happy at the expense of others.

Which means the empire's actions would tend to reflect species values. Which would limit strategies. (which is good)

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#49 Post by labgnome » Mon May 27, 2019 7:10 pm

So here is may attempt to produce a simple system of values. While I am currently using happiness, this change would work for a stability system as well, and has been designed with that in mind. The idea is that values have happiness and opinion effects only. When thinking about opinion effects I eliminated all value pairs that I didn't work or that I couldn't think of both a happiness and opinion effect.

ValueHappinessOpinion BonusOpinion Malus
Xenophobicmalus from proximity to other speciesconcentration campsnumber of species in empire
Xenophillicbonus from proximity to other speciesnumber of species in empireconcentration camps
Pacifistmalus from troopsturns empire at peaceturns empire at war
Warriorbonus from troopsturns empire at warturns empire at peace
Isolationistmalus from proximity to foreign supplyturns empire is soloturns empire is in alliance
Cosmopolitanbonus from proximity to foreign supplyturns empire is in allianceturns empire is solo
Lowbrowmalus from planet set to researchfraction of planets not set to researchfraction of planets set to research
Scientificbonus from planet set to researchfraction of planets set to researchfraction of planets not set to research
Environmentalmalus from planet set to productionfraction of planets not set to productionfraction of planets set to production
Industrialbonus from planet set to productionfraction of planets set to productionfraction of planets not set to production
Deviantmalus from planet set to influencefraction of planets not set to influencefraction of planets set to influence
Conformistbonus from planet set to influencefraction of planets set to influencefraction of planets not set to influence
Egalitarianmalus from proximity to vassal planetsfraction of free planetsfraction of vassal planets
Elitebonus from proximity to vassal planetsfraction of vassal planetsfraction of free planets

Notes:
Xenophobia and Xenophillia also effect the happiness/stability of nearby species.
Egalitarian and Elite might be dropped as I don't know how we feel about the free/vassal planets idea.
Opinions of governments and/or policies can be added later, but this should give us a simple functional system.

Any other ideas and feedback is welcome.
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Krikkitone
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#50 Post by Krikkitone » Tue May 28, 2019 2:28 pm

One thought...why have the happiness column?

Opinion should be enough to get the effect, and managing individual worlds in a "happiness puzzle " seems micromanaging

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#51 Post by Oberlus » Tue May 28, 2019 3:04 pm

Krikkitone wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:28 pm
One thought...why have the happiness column?

Opinion should be enough to get the effect, and managing individual worlds in a "happiness puzzle " seems micromanaging
Agree.
Make the empire's actions affect the species opinions, and make the species opinions on their empires modify the stability/happiness of the colonies.

That's apart from some species traits (values?) causing specific effects, like xenophobic does right now.
I don't know, but maybe we could have xenophobic as an species trait (not a value).
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#52 Post by labgnome » Tue May 28, 2019 3:38 pm

Krikkitone wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:28 pm
One thought...why have the happiness column?

Opinion should be enough to get the effect, and managing individual worlds in a "happiness puzzle " seems micromanaging
Namely I wanted to have a way to eliminate possible value pairs. Going off of the Xenophobic model, there is a happiness effect, so I wanted to preserve that. Opinion as a mechanic isn't fully fleshed-out so I didn't want to rely solely on it for the values. To me direct happiness effects for values makes sense.

Also, part of the intention was to potentially create situations where happiness/stability would cause some of their planets going into rebellion while others might not. The idea is to at least slightly curb the situation of all planets of a species going into rebellion at the same time. However I can see that those might not be a sufficient reason to keep happiness effects.
Oberlus wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:04 pm
That's apart from some species traits (values?) causing specific effects, like xenophobic does right now.
I don't know, but maybe we could have xenophobic as an species trait (not a value).
Removing Xenophobic as a value and making it a trait throws a wrench into the initial calculus of the system. I have been thinking about the Xenophobic effect, and maybe having a separate "Xenophobic harassment"/"Industrial harassment" or something like it as its own trait might work.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#53 Post by labgnome » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:39 pm

So with the policy card discussion over here I have been inspired to re-work the values system into it's simplest form yet. In this proposed system each species value will have a corresponding policy ideal. Adoption of policies in an ideal will create positive opinion for a species with the appropriate value, while adoption of policies in the opposite ideal will create negative opinion. This opinion will influence stability/happiness on a planet with that species and thus the likelihood of those planets staying in or leaving your empire. This will not mean that policies should be the only way to influence opinion or even interact with values, but that this is intended to serve as the foundation for a system of species values. However this should be sufficient to implement a system of species values once a functioning government/policy system is in place.
ValueOppositeOpinion BonusOpinion Malus
HierarchicalHorizontalCentralization PoliciesDecentralization Policies
HorizontalHierarchicalDecentralization PoliciesCentralization Policies
WarriorPacifistOffensive PoliciesDefensive Policies
PacifistWarriorDefensive PoliciesOffensive Policies
InquisitiveSecretiveExploratory PoliciesCovert Policies
SecretiveInquisitiveCovert PoliciesExploratory Policies
CooperativeCompetitiveCollectivized PoliciesPrivatized Policies
CompetitiveCooperativePrivatized PoliciesCollectivized Policies
EngineerAdaptiveEngineered PoliciesAdapted Policies
AdaptiveEngineerAdapted PoliciesEngineered Policies
XenophobicXenophillicSupremacy PoliciesEquality Policies
XenophillicXenophobicEquality PoliciesSupremacy Policies

Furthermore in addition I will propose that the effect malus from Xenophobic species be divorced from the trait and made into its own "Economic Harassment" trait. For the sake of completeness I will also propose additional forms harassment and assistance that can be species traits to add to existing and future species down the road.
TraitPrimary EffectHappiness EffectRange
Economic Harassment-10% Production, Research & Influence-1 per Jump Proximity5 Jumps
Civic Harassment-1 Supply, -5 Infrastructure, -10% Stockpiling-1 per Jump Proximity5 Jumps
Martial Harassment-10% Troops, Defense & Shields-1 per Jump Proximity5 Jumps
Economic Assistance+10% Production, Research & Influence+1 per Jump Proximity5 Jumps
Civic Assistance+1 Supply, +5 Infrastructure, +10% Stockpiling+1 per Jump Proximity5 Jumps
Martial Assistance+10% Troops, Defense & Shields+1 per Jump Proximity5 Jumps

There is also a population growth malus for self-sustaining species. Personally my opinion is that this should be tied to the harassment traits.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#54 Post by labgnome » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:11 am

So I thought I would illustrate some possible values for the playable species. I decided to constrain myself to each playable species having one value each that corresponds to economic, military and social policies. Non-playable species should be able have any combination of any three non-exclusive values. I based my assignments, firstly on the pedia entries and secondly on ensuring each species has a unique combination of values. I also included possible suggestions for harassment and assistance that species could give. This is intended as a first draft so criticism is welcome if anyone in interested in this idea.

SpeciesEconomic ValueMilitary ValueSocial ValueHarassmentAssistance
AbaddoniHierarchicalPacifistEngineer*MartialNone
ChatoHierarchicalSecretiveAdaptiveNoneNone
CrayHorizontalPacifistAdaptiveNoneEconomic
EaxawHorizontalWarriorXenophobicEconomicNone
EgassemHorizontalWarrior*CompetitiveNoneMartial
EttyHorizontal*PacifistCompetitiveNoneNone
FulverHierarchicalPacifistCooperativeNoneCivic
GeorgeHorizontalInquisitiveAdaptiveNoneCivic
GysacheHorizontalSecretiveEngineer*MartialNone
HumanHorizontalInquisitive*CompetitiveNone*None
LaenfaHorizontalSecretiveCooperativeNoneNone
RepliconHierarchicalSecretiveCompetitive*CivicNone
ScyliorHierarchicalInquisitiveEngineerNoneNone
SlyHierarchicalInquisitiveXenophilicNoneEconomic
TrithHierarchical*WarriorXenophobicEconomicNone

*Values I am unsure of:
  1. Abaddoni: suggested as possible consequences of an over-protective "Mother"
  2. Egassem: possibly Xenophilic instead
  3. Etty: possibly Inquisitive instead - if Humans get Xenophilic
  4. Gysache: possible consequence of Gysache fear of other species
  5. Human: possibly Xenophilic instead with maybe some form of assistance
  6. Replicon: possible "raiding parties" idea to go with post-apocalyptic theme
  7. Trith: possibly Secretive instead to further differentiate from Eaxaw
The idea here is that each species should give you different policy preferences, and thus different gameplay experiences. This is mostly for me to put this out here for future reference as I am really interesting in discussing policies and the tech tree right now. However if this stimulates people that's also cool.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#55 Post by Oberlus » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:53 am

I say: let the species designers freedom. Sketch the incompatibilities between values, and let the designer/modders set the values they want.
IMO, a species should be able to have few or no values (eminently neutral), or have two values of the same category as long as they are not incompatible.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#56 Post by labgnome » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:07 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:53 am
I say: let the species designers freedom. Sketch the incompatibilities between values, and let the designer/modders set the values they want.
IMO, a species should be able to have few or no values (eminently neutral), or have two values of the same category as long as they are not incompatible.
I mean I feel that any combinations should be possible, especially for native species. I'm neutral to the idea of species having different numbers of values. I do however dislike the idea of species having no values, as I think that might make them too "easy" to deal with. I merely wanted to give myself some constraints when making a proposal for the playable species as they are the most important for gameplay.
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Re: Species Values Discussion

#57 Post by Krikkitone » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:49 pm

Species with no values might actually be harder, because there is less you could do to make them like you.

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Re: Species Values Discussion

#58 Post by labgnome » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:12 pm

Krikkitone wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:49 pm
Species with no values might actually be harder, because there is less you could do to make them like you.
That is something to consider. That might actually be a serious issue. Which might be all the more reason to have all species required to have at least one value.
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