Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

For topics that do not fit in another sub-forum.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Message
Author
L29Ah
Space Floater
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:19 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#151 Post by L29Ah » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:03 am

JonCST wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:27 pm
Especially now that stealth carriers have (possibly rightly) been nerfed
What nerf are you talking about?
Team S.M.A.C.: play multiplayer with us!

User avatar
JonCST
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#152 Post by JonCST » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:07 am

L29Ah wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:03 am
JonCST wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:27 pm
Especially now that stealth carriers have (possibly rightly) been nerfed
What nerf are you talking about?
It has been published that a change was made so that stealth carriers are only stealthy on turns/rounds when they do not do either of:

1) fire one or more weapons
2) launch one or more fighters.

On the round they launch, they become visible, and therefore vulnerable to attack.

J.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#153 Post by Oberlus » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:37 am

JonCST wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:07 am
L29Ah wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:03 am
What nerf are you talking about?
It has been published that a change was made so that stealth carriers are only stealthy on turns/rounds when they do not do either of:

1) fire one or more weapons
2) launch one or more fighters.

On the round they launch, they become visible, and therefore vulnerable to attack.
So they work as any armed ships: get attacked from bout 2 onwards.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#154 Post by Oberlus » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:00 am

JonCST wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:33 pm
While that's true in theory, the times i've tried it against Real People, the RP required to get stealth has meant being at a disadvantage in armor, weapons, and production.
I think it's a good strategy for good research empires that does not go for shields: their smaller production gets compensated with the extra protection from first strike and the surprise factor.
JonCST wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:33 pm
Until the opponent researches the next level of detection, and then they can see your planet, which has no defenses.
Again, only convenient for empires with a characteristic: good or great planetary stealth. That way the enemy has to invest more RPs than you to see you. With great planetary stealth it's easy to keep invisible until late game.
Each detection level you get gives you +20, so two levels of detection can't cancel out three levels of stealth, so I think your calculations are wrong.

User avatar
JonCST
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#155 Post by JonCST » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:20 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:00 am
Each detection level you get gives you +20, so two levels of detection can't cancel out three levels of stealth, so I think your calculations are wrong.
One level of detection cancels out one level of stealth.
One level of detection plus Lighthouse (IL) cancels out 2 levels of stealth.

Copped/pasted from the version 2019-11-24 Pedia entries for Stealth parts:
Weak Cloaking (+20)
Moderate Cloaking (+40)
Strong Cloaking (+60)
And, of course, they don't stack.

For Detection technologies:
Unlocks the Active Radar ship part and the Scanning Facility building, increases the Detection Range of all planets to 75, and increases the imperial Detection Strength to 30.
Unlocks the Neutron Scanner ship part, increases the Detection Range of all planets to 150, and increases the imperial Detection Strength to 50.
Unlocks the Sensors ship part, increases the Detection Range of all planets to 200, and increases the imperial Detection Strength to 70.
So, if your opponent has the same detection strength you need in order to research stealth, they can still see you unless you have a hull bonus. Which IL will overcome:
Decreases the Stealth of all objects in the same system by 30
Admittedly, one needs ILs in lots of systems, but they only cost 25 PP, much less than an ED part for a single ship, yes?

Finally, Contra Gravitational Maintenance only costs 500 RP. SGH has 100 structure, and takes 2 turns to build. Protoplasmic hull has at most 30 structure and takes 5 turns to build, then another 50 turns to reach full strength. Is the 30% bonus going to overcome the difference between the two?

Unless the Pedia is wrong, of course.

Jon

Magnate
Dyson Forest
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:44 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#156 Post by Magnate » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:10 pm

So that was fun to catch up on. To answer JonCST and wrap up a few other things -

1. No, I don't think organic hulls are underpowered, in general. They're cheap, fast, and some are stealthy. In particular I've been caned by the Static Multicellular hull enough times that I'm considering going for it next time. I have never done so before because I think organic == stealth so I always go the other route, but SMH is really good value. The stealthy hulls are very fragile but that's kind of reasonable.

2. No, I don't think stealth is pointless, I think it's great - if you can maintain your advantage. In the game where you went for planetary stealth, I went for ship stealth and kept ahead of o01eg and Oberlus until quite late. Yes stealth carriers are basically pointless because of the way the mechanics work, but if you can blow up your enemy on round 1 (and you can pick the fights), they can't hurt you. I do think stealth needs re-thinking in the late game, or rather I think detection needs re-thinking because at the moment detection strength is a single thing obtained from a single tech, and I'd like it to be building-based so that detection strength varies across an empire and you need to invest more to counter stealth. I think you underestimate the effectiveness of your strategy in the fourth game - you didn't win, but I don't think that's because stealth was an underpowered strategy, I think you were up against a team with sufficient advantages to overcome it.

3. I do think the robotic hull is overpowered, my considered view is that it should have three external slots not four - either that or the energy frigate should have five. But the gravity hulls are a huge investment because they need both RP *and* PP, and very few races/starts can get enough of both. Organics need RP and lots of forward planning but far fewer PP which is good for research-led strategies. So I think the rest of the robotic hull line is quite well balanced, it's just the first hull that is overpowered. This is borne out by four consecutive MP games in which people have still been building robotic hulls at turn 100 and nobody has built gravity or energy hulls until then.

And to reply to Oberlus, although I am very open about optimisation, I don't take that outside the game interface itself - I would happily agree to a no-communication game. I don't particularly see the point (the in-game chat is just a less convenient communication interface), but I would be able to abide by it.

o01eg
Programmer
Posts: 570
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:46 am

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#157 Post by o01eg » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:58 pm

The only UI changes happened in 2019-12-03.c0eb3bb weekly test build.
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-9.2, boost-1.71.0
Ubuntu Server 18.04 x64, gcc-7.4, boost-1.65.1
Welcome to slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io. Version 2019-12-08.203bc4c.
Donates are welcome: BTC:14XLekD9ifwqLtZX4iteepvbLQNYVG87zK

User avatar
swaq
Space Kraken
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:56 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#158 Post by swaq » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 pm

Turn 70

Diplomacy is hard...

User avatar
JonCST
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#159 Post by JonCST » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:35 am

swaq wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 pm
:arrow: Diplomacy is hard...
Indeed.

J

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#160 Post by Oberlus » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:21 am

JonCST wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:35 am
swaq wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 pm
:arrow: Diplomacy is hard...
Indeed.
I'm a bit stressed out with so much diplomacy :lol:

For next game, could we do ring-shape galaxy and one of the following?
  • No alliances allowed, only peace.
  • Every empire can have maximum 1 ally.
I don't know if server can enforce any of that, but could be a good addition if some01 implements it.

o01eg
Programmer
Posts: 570
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:46 am

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#161 Post by o01eg » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:59 am

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:21 am
JonCST wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:35 am
swaq wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:19 pm
:arrow: Diplomacy is hard...
Indeed.
I'm a bit stressed out with so much diplomacy :lol:

For next game, could we do ring-shape galaxy and one of the following?
  • No alliances allowed, only peace.
  • Every empire can have maximum 1 ally.
I don't know if server can enforce any of that, but could be a good addition if some01 implements it.
Alliances can be easy disabled at server-side only. Restricting number is more complex.
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-9.2, boost-1.71.0
Ubuntu Server 18.04 x64, gcc-7.4, boost-1.65.1
Welcome to slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io. Version 2019-12-08.203bc4c.
Donates are welcome: BTC:14XLekD9ifwqLtZX4iteepvbLQNYVG87zK

User avatar
JonCST
Space Kraken
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:28 am

Re: Seventh game on MPSGS

#162 Post by JonCST » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:45 am

Perhaps we should start a new topic?
Oberlus wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:21 am
For next game, could we do ring-shape galaxy and one of the following?
  • No alliances allowed, only peace.
  • Every empire can have maximum 1 ally.
If we want to take this to the extreme:
  • No natives
  • No monsters
  • No specials
  • No communication
It'll be just like playing against AIs, except for smarter opponents.

Would be a real test of:
  • How well each player strategizes and tacticals.
  • How much the initial species assignment affects the outcome.
  • How much the randomness in creating the initial layout affects the outcome.
Want a real bloodbath? Lower the number of systems per player :twisted:

J.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Seventh game on MPSGS

#163 Post by Oberlus » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:05 am

JonCST wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:45 am
If we want to take this to the extreme:
  • No natives
  • No monsters
  • No specials
  • No communication
Not my cup of tea, but could do it if someone else want to.

User avatar
swaq
Space Kraken
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:56 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#164 Post by swaq » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:45 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:05 am
JonCST wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:45 am
If we want to take this to the extreme:
  • No natives
  • No monsters
  • No specials
  • No communication
Not my cup of tea, but could do it if someone else want to.
I also don't like the idea of no communication.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Sixth game on the multiplayer slow game server (0.4.9)

#165 Post by Oberlus » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:41 pm

My ideal for next game would be:

Galaxy shape: ring.
It allows for a fair distribution of players: you have one on the left and one on the right, you can't end up in the centre of the galaxy with enemies in many fronts.

Specials: low.
No specials is a great advantage for phototrophic and self-sustaining species.

Monsters: low.
Monsters: none would mean that any special is readily obtainable, which is a disadvantage for empires that do not get one nearby.

Natives: low.
Just because.

Post Reply