Chato (slightly) OP?

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Oberlus
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Chato (slightly) OP?

#1 Post by Oberlus » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:52 pm

Chato has
- Great research (200%)
- Broad planet tolerance.
- Bad defensive troops (50%).
- Bad offensive troops (50%).
- Phototrophic (similar to great population on young galaxies, bad population on ancient galaxies and average population at mature galaxies).

Compared to Scylior, another great research species that was nerfed (by adding bad supply and bad fuel) some time ago:
- Great research.
- Good population (125% population).
- Bad supply (+0).
- Bad fuel (-0.5).
- Medium size homeworld (75% starting population).

Great research plus good population equals to 250% research (and 125% production), but for the start, with medium HW, it equals 187.5% research and 93.75% production.
Together with bad supply and bad fuel this means slower expansion rate for Scylior than for Chato. Chato's broad planet tolerance means it is easier for them to overcome bad starts with no good/adequate planets. Also, the Exobots are almost at the opposite side if the environment wheel, so Chato+Exobot can colonise everything but Desert once they get Xenological Genetics.

Cray has good research, bad production and good defensive troops. Arguably comparable to Scylior (although I think Scylior are better) but not to Chato. Better research means overcoming the troops problem relatively easy, plus anything else better than Cray.


So, do you think it would be a good idea to remove broad planet tolerance from Chato?

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Vezzra
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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#2 Post by Vezzra » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:03 pm

As I asked for this thread, I probably should throw in my two cent: Sounds reasonable.

I haven't been playing myself for a long time, so I can't tell from my own experience with the Chato, but the reasons cited and the proposed adjustment make sense to me. However, I'd still like to hear feedback/thoughts from other players on this, so, if anyone wants to share their thoughts, that would be appreciated. :)

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labgnome
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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#3 Post by labgnome » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:40 pm

So, do you think it would be a good idea to remove broad planet tolerance from Chato
The Chato, with the advantage in research and broad planet tolerance seem ideal for peaceful expansion, which fits into their fluff. Personally I'd give them bad weapons in addition to bad troops, to cement their role.
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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#4 Post by Oberlus » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:14 pm

labgnome wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:40 pm
The Chato, with the advantage in research and broad planet tolerance seem ideal for peaceful expansion, which fits into their fluff. Personally I'd give them bad weapons in addition to bad troops, to cement their role.
Are they really peaceful?
Pedia wrote:Sessile crystalline entities which ride the animal Gormoshk.
[...]
Social Structure:
In Chato'matou society, age is the most important factor as they are nearly immortal. Every command the elders issue is obeyed at once and to disobey an elder is the greatest crime in Chato'matou society. They developed a system to transmit signals without delay throughout an entire colony, enabling them to converse with near the speed of light. This greatly enhanced the species mental capabilities, as all new ideas and theories could be instantly processed throughout the colony. The Gormoshk are valued as mounts and well cared for under normal circumstances, however they are also seen mostly as animals.
They fit into both aggressive and peaceful roles. They seem, from the fluff, tyrant, strongly attached to a rigid hierarchical society. With their advantage in research and their not-bad industry they are rather good at out-teching the nearby opponents to conquer them.

Your suggestion is good, but it makes Chato a bit too similar to Gysache, the other good/great research species with bad pilots and troops. Although that is also a problem with my suggestion, Gysache are as well normal tolerance.

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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#5 Post by labgnome » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:54 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:14 pm
Your suggestion is good, but it makes Chato a bit too similar to Gysache, the other good/great research species with bad pilots and troops. Although that is also a problem with my suggestion, Gysache are as well normal tolerance.
Maybe they could be just good research, instead of great. I am just hesitant to change something like environmental tolerance that effects play-style so much.

As a side note: this is making me realize that we probably should figure out some kind of point-value system for species traits, not just for allowing players to build their own species, but to address these kinds of problems when they arise. Right now we have no objective way to decide what would be a way to change the Chato to better balance them, assigning a value to the various traits would give as a way to do that.
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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#6 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:05 pm

Agree that chato are more powerful than most other species currently. How about bad population instead of narrowing down environment?

That would put them contrast their expansion from that of Scylior even more.
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Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#7 Post by Oberlus » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:11 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:05 pm
How about bad population instead of narrowing down environment?
Love it!

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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#8 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:00 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:11 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:05 pm
How about bad population instead of narrowing down environment?
Love it!
Note this would be a serious nerf though. Without looking at metabolism chato would be like cray (75% industry, 150% research, broad tolerance) but with bad troops instead of good ones. It might be though that the combination of phototrophic and broad tolerance (+ good research) give a nice starting bonus in mature galaxies. (Subect to playtesting i guess)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#9 Post by Oberlus » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:53 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:00 pm
Note this would be a serious nerf though. Without looking at metabolism chato would be like cray (75% industry, 150% research, broad tolerance) but with bad troops instead of good ones. It might be though that the combination of phototrophic and broad tolerance (+ good research) give a nice starting bonus in mature galaxies. (Subect to playtesting i guess)
Oh, right.
Well, the Cray prefer barren, almost same as Exobot, so Chato has that advantage and it's probably stronger than the good defense, average offense troops of Cray, so I guess the two would be quite balanced with respect each other. But I don't like that they would be rather similar except for environment preference and metabolism. I guess that is better than current OP Chato though.
I prefer that suggestion over making Chato 150% research, because the latter makes them also quite similar to Cray but with some advantage for Chato.

In the end I prefer to make them more similar to Gysache than to Cray because the 150% industry of Gysache makes them considerably more different regarding playstyle. So I would vote for labgnome's initial proposal: make them bad pilots.

Anyone else agrees?

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Re: Chato (slightly) OP?

#10 Post by Ophiuchus » Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:21 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:53 pm
Well, the Cray prefer barren, almost same as Exobot, so Chato has that advantage and it's probably stronger than the good defense, average offense troops of Cray, so I guess the two would be quite balanced with respect each other. But I don't like that they would be rather similar except for environment preference and metabolism. I guess that is better than current OP Chato though.
There is also a difference in pop-based bonus of course, so later on the the Cray would be better off. But still probably quite similar strategies for both.
Oberlus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:53 pm
vote for labgnome's initial proposal: make them bad pilots.

Anyone else agrees?
I think bad pilots is ok for a nerf. Maybe also bad stealth so Chato can not go tech-hiding their empire. Juicy target species - great stats and hard to defend.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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