New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot (aka Arc Disruptor)

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Oberlus
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#16 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:06 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:13 amMaybe easier to not let pilot species trait to affect fire rate, only damage. Fire rate only affected by tech refinement.
No, that explodes even sooner (e.g. 5shots x 2 damage weapon with would give a super-death-ray-boost +10 damage for a great species).
With the normal weapons, a level of species bonus is like a level of tech bonus, and you can research 3 levels of tech bonus so the species bonus is not soooo much better.
Sorry, I didn't explain it properly:

- Start at fire rate 2.
- Let species trait affect damage and not fire rate.
- Use only one tech refinement to increase fire rate to 3, mid/late game. Maybe, if it can be balanced, another very late tech to increase it to fire rate 4.
- Use one early tech and another late tech to increase shot damage.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#17 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:06 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:13 amMaybe easier to not let pilot species trait to affect fire rate, only damage. Fire rate only affected by tech refinement.
No, that explodes even sooner (e.g. 5shots x 2 damage weapon with would give a super-death-ray-boost +10 damage for a great species).
With the normal weapons, a level of species bonus is like a level of tech bonus, and you can research 3 levels of tech bonus so the species bonus is not soooo much better.
Sorry, I didn't explain it properly:

- Start at fire rate 2.
- Let species trait affect damage and not fire rate.
- Use only one tech refinement to increase fire rate to 3, mid/late game. Maybe, if it can be balanced, another very late tech to increase it to fire rate 4.
- Use one early tech and another late tech to increase shot damage.
That looks like there could be an alternative to the 3-shot version. Could you make a suggestion for PP and RP costs?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:17 am Can do, but I worry it's going to be too-similar to the magenta of the death-ray again. I'll give you some color options and see what you like.
The blue one is best. I like it.

For color-blind people we probably also change one of the beams of death ray or pulse laser i guess, but for the moment I think the different weapon shape will do.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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labgnome
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#19 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:54 pm
labgnome wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:17 am Can do, but I worry it's going to be too-similar to the magenta of the death-ray again. I'll give you some color options and see what you like.
The blue one is best. I like it.

For color-blind people we probably also change one of the beams of death ray or pulse laser i guess, but for the moment I think the different weapon shape will do.
Blue one it is. Work is crazy right now but I will try to have something out by the end of the week, hopefully sooner.
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#20 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:42 pmCould you make a suggestion for PP and RP costs?
I'm on it, I'll finish this week probably.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#21 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:54 pm
labgnome wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:17 am Can do, but I worry it's going to be too-similar to the magenta of the death-ray again. I'll give you some color options and see what you like.
The blue one is best. I like it.

For color-blind people we probably also change one of the beams of death ray or pulse laser i guess, but for the moment I think the different weapon shape will do.
Here are the new pulsed laser in blues.
pulse-laser.png
pulse-laser.png (8 KiB) Viewed 701 times
pulse-laser-1.png
pulse-laser-1.png (7.91 KiB) Viewed 701 times
pulse-laser-2.png
pulse-laser-2.png (8.12 KiB) Viewed 701 times
pulse-laser-3.png
pulse-laser-3.png (8.23 KiB) Viewed 701 times
pulse-laser-4.png
pulse-laser-4.png (7.99 KiB) Viewed 701 times
while I was at it I value inverted the beam on the death ray so it looks different. Let me know what you think.
death-ray.png
death-ray.png (11.03 KiB) Viewed 701 times
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#22 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:42 pmThat looks like there could be an alternative to the 3-shot version. Could you make a suggestion for PP and RP costs?
TL;DR

PP cost: 60, same as Death Ray.
Fire rate fixed at 3.
Three tech upgrades as tiers, like the fighters, so that the same part is useful from start to end game.

Damage output at each tier similar to 3*MD4, 2*laser4, 1.5*plasma4 or 1*DR4, to make it comparable in damage/cost:
Tier Pilots inc. Base Ultimate RP cost R turns
1 1 5 16 50 10
2 1 8 26 200 8
3 2 10 33 800 10
4 2 15 49 3200 12


Edit: changed RP costs to "make more sense", getting first multilevel takes longer than laser, and getting last upgrade takes 14 more turns than getting first level death ray (and 5 more than getting fully-upgraded death ray).

Edit 2: most values in the table are wrong, I dunno what I did when copying the table but it's useless. And now we are doing something different so no need in correcting it.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:31 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:42 pmThat looks like there could be an alternative to the 3-shot version. Could you make a suggestion for PP and RP costs?
TL;DR

PP cost: 60, same as Death Ray.
Fire rate fixed at 3.
Three tech upgrades as tiers, like the fighters, so that the same part is useful from start to end game.

Damage output at each tier similar to 3*MD4, 2*laser4, 1.5*plasma4 or 1*DR4, to make it comparable in damage/cost:
Hm a nice weapon, but not especially good at downing early comsats (for that role it is like three MD2 condensed into one so you can save PP on ship hulls, but with more research cost). I think it also cannibalizes MD instead of being complementary.

Second tier is nice to down upgraded comsats though.

Also I am not sure what "Pilots inc." and Ultimate values mean.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#24 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:53 pm not especially good at downing early comsats (for that role it is like three MD2 condensed into one so you can save PP on ship hulls, but with more research cost).
Right. Per cost, it has almost the same efficiency at taking down (early and reinforced) comsats than MD, the only difference comming from the slots (hulls) occupied. And the same goes for any possible target other than comsats, because it emulates the damage of 3 MDs spread over three shots, so it's effectively 3 MDs.
When upgraded to upper tiers it begins to spread the damage over more shots, and so becomes the real multishot weapon that we wanted (better against unshielded, worse against shielded, when compared to equivalent singleshot weapon).
The culprit is trying to make it a single-part, multi-tier weapon like the hangars.
I think it also cannibalizes MD instead of being complementary.
In practice it doesn't because of research and PP costs: if you plan to build early ships with MDs, you won't be waiting to research the multishot weapon and then having to pay 60 PPs per each one to build really expensive ships. Tier one of the multishot weapon will be competing (in the research strategy) against lasers, and in the battlefield will be better than lasers if facing unshielded, chaff and small enemies and worse facing shielded enemies.
Also I am not sure what "Pilots inc." and Ultimate values mean.
"Base" is the base damage per shot of the weapon (with average pilots). "Pilots inc." is the increase (or decrease) of damage-per-shot per each level of the Pilot species trait. "Ultimate" is the damage-per-shot with ultimate pilots (+3 levels of damage). There were several errors in the table (edited in the previous post), but I see the problems you point out are not solvable in my initial approach with upgradeable-till-the-end part weapon.
Let's make two weapon parts, each with tech upgrades, one equivalent in cost and efficiency to laser (good for comsats and small chaff, acceptable as flak, bad vs early shields, innefective vs late shields) and one in between of plasma and death ray (good against any form of chaff and small hulls, acceptable vs early shields, bad vs late shields and as flak):

(All three shot)

Multishot A: 30 PPs, base dmg 2, +1 per tech upgrade and pilots level up to 8.
Multishot B: 50 PPs, base dmg 5, +2 per tech upgrade and pilots level up to 17.

Multishot A is like some kind of flak on steroids, with a function among the SR weapons similar to the multi-role of the Fighters among fighters. Best counter against comat spam and small chaff in general. Countered with mid game shields.
Multishot B is the late-game SR weapon best suited against unshielded targets in general and specially against fleets of small but numerous ships (those that cause Death Ray to overshoot). Black shield is the only hard counter against a ultimate pilot species abusing these.

One multishot B kills exactly the same than 3 laser with same upgrades and pilot, with 55.6% of the PP cost. Fully upgraded with ultimate pilots, versus unshieldes targets, it does 51 damage per bout, against the 45 that do the death ray. Against black shield, it does 6 damage, against the 30 that does a death ray.

Tech requirements:

Multishot A unlocked from start (hanging from Mass Driver 1, I guess).
Tech: 40 RPs, 10 turns.
Upgrade 1: 30 RPs, 3 turns.
Upgrade 2: 45 RPs, 3 turns.
Upgrade 3: 75 RPs, 3 turns.
Mutishot B unlocked by Multishot A and, maybe, something else that fits the fluff and helps balancing it if necessary (otherwise just multishot A seems just fine).
Tech: 750 RPs, 15 turns.
Upgrade 1: 400 RPs, 5 turns.
Upgrade 2: 800 RPs, 5 turns.
Upgrade 3: 1200 RPs, 5 turns.

With infinite, RPs, you can get Multishot B in 25 turns, and Death Ray in 26 turns. Rushing death rays is mostly as hard as rushing multishot B. Due to RP costs per turn and opportunity costs, it's probable that most players will get plasmas before multishot B, which delays researching multishot B but does not delay death ray (unless spending into plasma upgrades).

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#25 Post by Oberlus »

End game, MultiShot B is awesome dealing damage at unshielded fleets, much better than fighters, so everyone would have to mount shields against empires abusing multishot.
Then, the multishot empires will have to overcome the shields with fighters, but keeping some multishots to enforce the expensive shields on the enemy ships.
And the best counter against fighter + multishot is big hulls + shield + flaks + fighter + multishot (if small ships unshielded) or death rays (if medium/big ships shielded).

Hmmm... Seems like best end game ship would be a big hull with black shield, bombers, flaks, multishots and armour. Not good for end game diversity. Thoughts?

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#26 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:25 amLet's make two weapon parts, each with tech upgrades, one equivalent in cost and efficiency to laser (good for comsats and small chaff, acceptable as flak, bad vs early shields, innefective vs late shields) and one in between of plasma and death ray (good against any form of chaff and small hulls, acceptable vs early shields, bad vs late shields and as flak):

(All three shot)

Multishot A: 30 PPs, base dmg 2, +1 per tech upgrade and pilots level up to 8.
Multishot B: 50 PPs, base dmg 5, +2 per tech upgrade and pilots level up to 17.

Multishot A is like some kind of flak on steroids, with a function among the SR weapons similar to the multi-role of the Fighters among fighters. Best counter against comat spam and small chaff in general. Countered with mid game shields.
Multishot B is the late-game SR weapon best suited against unshielded targets in general and specially against fleets of small but numerous ships (those that cause Death Ray to overshoot). Black shield is the only hard counter against a ultimate pilot species abusing these..
Maybe have Multishot A be the Pulse Laser, and Multishot B be the Ion Cannon? I can whip up some numbers on the side of the ion cannon if you like?
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#27 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:43 pmMaybe have Multishot A be the Pulse Laser, and Multishot B be the Ion Cannon?
Pulse Laser sounds like it should have Laser 1 as prerequisite, and it would be great if it doesn't, to get an independent tech branch (steming from Aggression, I guess). I've thought of some evolution of the mass driver, like some kind of debris shotgun or railgun.
The B version would make sense to be energy based, so Ion Cannon doesn't sound bad.
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:43 pmI can whip up some numbers on the side of the ion cannon if you like?
I don't know what numbers you mean, but go ahead.

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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#28 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:37 am
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:43 pmMaybe have Multishot A be the Pulse Laser, and Multishot B be the Ion Cannon?
Pulse Laser sounds like it should have Laser 1 as prerequisite, and it would be great if it doesn't, to get an independent tech branch (steming from Aggression, I guess). I've thought of some evolution of the mass driver, like some kind of debris shotgun or railgun.
The B version would make sense to be energy based, so Ion Cannon doesn't sound bad.
Well I was thinking that pulsed laser makes a lot of sense for a multi-shot weapon. I don't think that it needs regular lasers as a prerequisite, as we can already make both IRL, but maybe have regular lasers reduce the cost like we have with detection and stealth parts tech. Alternately you could have lasers and pulse lasers unlocked by the same tech.
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:43 pmI can whip up some numbers on the side of the ion cannon if you like?
I don't know what numbers you mean, but go ahead.
Numbers beside the image to show the damage upgrades from tech, like with the other weapons. Like what I did for the pulse laser image.
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#29 Post by labgnome »

Here is the Ion Cannon, I upped the brightness and contrast to make the gun stand-out form the plasma cannon.
ion_cannon.png
ion_cannon.png (8.25 KiB) Viewed 628 times
ion_cannon-1.png
ion_cannon-1.png (8.33 KiB) Viewed 628 times
ion_cannon-2.png
ion_cannon-2.png (8.38 KiB) Viewed 628 times
ion_cannon-3.png
ion_cannon-3.png (9.14 KiB) Viewed 628 times
ion_cannon-4.png
ion_cannon-4.png (8.33 KiB) Viewed 628 times
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Re: New weapon part - Gamma Burst Slingshot

#30 Post by The Silent One »

If these new weapons go into the game, they should receive their own original art assets, not some recoloration of existing ones.
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