Missile/Projectile Weapons

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jinlanid
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#16 Post by jinlanid »

Can we have some "target assignment system", that only fire ENOUGH missile. Don't fire a thousand missiles to a single scout.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#17 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:16 pmYou did not give a game reason why you want the single-part weapon system.
Reasons to have missiles be a single-part weapon
  1. I want missiles to "feel" different from fighters, which they are already similar to.
  2. I want missiles to be more "economical" space-wise than fighters.
  3. I want missile-ships to be more versatile than carriers.
  4. I want the lowest tech missile to be the new starting weapon.
One could also combine these two ideas, missile launcher with batteries included ;) and another internal part which e.g. refills missile launchers after battle (simple FOCS implementation) or adds extra capacity (maybe tricky FOCS implementation or some extra backend implementation).
This idea I like. My first impression is that the second option would have more utility, however I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the first option would be useful, especially if it's easier to do.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#18 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:16 pmWith the two-part weapon system you could scale number of attacking missiles and number of missiles independent of each other which i think is a bit more interesting.
I agree. MoO2 had that and it was very nice to have: you can deliver lots of missiles faster at greater cost (more launch bays per missile pod) and less vulnerability against enemy flaks, or slower at cheaper cost (less launch bays per missile pod) and more vulnerability to enemy flaks.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#19 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:19 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:16 pm ]One could also combine these two ideas, missile launcher with batteries included ;) and another internal part which e.g. refills missile launchers after battle (simple FOCS implementation) or adds extra capacity (maybe tricky FOCS implementation or some extra backend implementation).
This idea I like. My first impression is that the second option would have more utility, however I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the first option would be useful, especially if it's easier to do.
Refilling missile launchers after battle helps if you are out-of-supply. If missile launchers exist this would only need a generic part (so no special missile-storage part class). The number of missile launched in a battle would also be determined by the launcher and not the number of bouts.

On a related note:
jinlanid wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:06 am Can we have some "target assignment system", that only fire ENOUGH missile. Don't fire a thousand missiles to a single scout.
The question is what "enough" means here. I take this as: only shoot if there is a ship with immediate structure larger than zero. Basically a missile launcher fleet would do no overkill.
That would be possible but completely out of line to the current handling of weapons. Maybe it is warranted for such weapons with depleting capacity.

Or we simply accept overkill crazyness as normal. That should be ok if high levels of munitions are easily achievable (e.g. a launcher carries by default carries enough missiles to last for two turns battles).

On the other maybe such expendable munition weapons are not a good fit for our combat system so we should not have them.

It looks to me that the smallest common denominator here is currently that missiles should be based on supply-regenerated munitions?
If munitions are kind of low that is only a useful weapon if you can reconnect to your supply. So you must be either in or close to your supply or able to outpost/invade a planet in order to restock. So rather a boost for defense.

So I think we need to determine first the combat roles of missiles. Currently I see more issues than utility but that may clear up.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#20 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:58 am
labgnome wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:19 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:16 pm One could also combine these two ideas, missile launcher with batteries included ;) and another internal part which e.g. refills missile launchers after battle (simple FOCS implementation) or adds extra capacity (maybe tricky FOCS implementation or some extra backend implementation).
This idea I like. My first impression is that the second option would have more utility, however I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the first option would be useful, especially if it's easier to do.
Refilling missile launchers after battle helps if you are out-of-supply. If missile launchers exist this would only need a generic part (so no special missile-storage part class). The number of missile launched in a battle would also be determined by the launcher and not the number of bouts.
I think I get what you are saying and I'll go for it.
On a related note:
jinlanid wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:06 am Can we have some "target assignment system", that only fire ENOUGH missile. Don't fire a thousand missiles to a single scout.
The question is what "enough" means here. I take this as: only shoot if there is a ship with immediate structure larger than zero. Basically a missile launcher fleet would do no overkill.
That would be possible but completely out of line to the current handling of weapons. Maybe it is warranted for such weapons with depleting capacity.
It's looking like we might need to talk about how we want to to targeting priority/target assignment systems. Maybe missiles will necessitate that kind of system. However I do think that might be veering into off-topic territory that may warrant its own thread.
Or we simply accept overkill crazyness as normal. That should be ok if high levels of munitions are easily achievable (e.g. a launcher carries by default carries enough missiles to last for two turns battles).
I'm open to to this idea. It's something we can definitely flesh-out in this thread. Currently how many bouts does combat last for?
It looks to me that the smallest common denominator here is currently that missiles should be based on supply-regenerated munitions?
If munitions are kind of low that is only a useful weapon if you can reconnect to your supply. So you must be either in or close to your supply or able to outpost/invade a planet in order to restock. So rather a boost for defense.
Missiles could be a rather good weapon for defensive players at the right cost. Maybe have them be cheaper per shot than direct weapons. With "warhead" boosting techs this could make missiles fairly economical. Maybe have a tech that boosts the damage up to 23, maybe "quantum warheads" or "void warheads".
So I think we need to determine first the combat roles of missiles. Currently I see more issues than utility but that may clear up.
I'd say from what this discussion has brought out so-far is that missiles are potentially a defensive weapon. They would be initially effective against fighters but through technology become more effective against ships, keeping up with shield technology.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#21 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:40 pm It's looking like we might need to talk about how we want to to targeting priority/target assignment systems. Maybe missiles will necessitate that kind of system. However I do think that might be veering into off-topic territory that may warrant its own thread.
Well there are several. The specific thing here is if would be OK to have a (mostly) no-shot-overkill weapon system. Two variants I see: either missiles launch as usual (random weapon shots), so a beam weapon might generate shot-overkill on an enemy killed by a missile; or missiles shoot last - which would mean no shot-overkill by missiles at all. There might be a veto from the depths of history (the project leads). Start one thread if you like.
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:40 pm
Or we simply accept overkill crazyness as normal. That should be ok if high levels of munitions are easily achievable (e.g. a launcher carries by default carries enough missiles to last for two turns battles).
I'm open to to this idea. It's something we can definitely flesh-out in this thread. Currently how many bouts does combat last for?
Three bouts per turn (and hopefully soon four). So two turns would mean six (soon eight) missiles. Under normal circumstances this means that it is ok to waste shots. So a sending a decoy ship triggering the attack of an enemy fleet would be destroyed in a single bout would deplete missile storage by one. I thought first to scale capacity with the used number of bouts but maybe a fixed value is also fine (e.g. if you have 10 capacity, wasting a shot means loosing only a tenth of the firepower iff you can't resupply). Of course this would make missiles more similar to other weapon systems - munitions only would matter if your fleet is unsupplyable. This would be (more) interesting i guess if cutting off supply would be more realistic or battles would take multiple turns (so in the course of the multi-turn battle the ammo runs out). Requiring to be not in combat, stationary and in-supply for resupplying missiles might help.

Another idea: we could also make missiles only shoot starting from e.g. bout two (or only starting in bout two), so if your out-of-supply fleet carries enough normal weapon punch to destroy decoys, no missiles would be wasted (of course enemy could try to send more/better "decoys" - but that would be more expensive). This would be also similar to delayed damage with recollect (launch in bout one, flies around in bout two, attack enemy if any left in bout three, recollect if no target).

If missiles only shoot in a single bout, shots/damage would be upped and munitions lowered (e.g. only two munitions) accordingly. Also resupply-after-battle and resupply-in-battle would mean the same thing in that case.
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:40 pm Missiles could be a rather good weapon for defensive players at the right cost. Maybe have them be cheaper per shot than direct weapons. With "warhead" boosting techs this could make missiles fairly economical.
If it is too effective/economical it becomes boring. I think early invasion should be possible and it is already hard to pull it off. So there needs to be a counter.
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:40 pm
So I think we need to determine first the combat roles of missiles. Currently I see more issues than utility but that may clear up.
I'd say from what this discussion has brought out so-far is that missiles are potentially a defensive weapon. They would be initially effective against fighters but through technology become more effective against ships, keeping up with shield technology.
If missiles target fighters as well one can use those as a counter (decoy shield). That could be a nice niche.

Currently we are going for: ships,planets and Bombers are attacking ships (but no fighters); the only way to attack fighters are flak and other Fighter/Interceptors; missiles could fill in for attacking both ships and fighters.

So I would suggest: have missile launcher parts only (multi-)shoot in bout two, launcher by itself can shoot once - it gets refilled after battle from supply network or from "missile storage" part if you have one with four capacity. Normal missiles attack ships and fighters. Resupply of storage and launcher parts happens only in-allied-supply, if stationary and not in combat last turn. (?Note to self "on event=onShoot" effect?)

Not sure if missiles should be shield-piercing or not.

What could be prototyped with FOCS if I add the condition to query the current bout to the backend using fighters: can have multiple missile launcher launch bay and a single missile storage hangar which gets some extra capacity per launcher part. Normal missiles only target fighters OR ships and are shield-piercing. Resupply of storage and launcher parts happens only in-allied-supply, if stationary and not in combat last turn. Missiles can be shot down like fighters by flak,Fighters and Interceptors. If the ship was in combat, decrease the capacity storage capacity by the number of launcher parts (so this is where missiles are used up). Damage gets scaled to the number of bouts per turn.

One example what could be prototyped right now using normal ship weapons: missile launcher weapon part, can only shoot every second turn (which would simulate that missiles are not always available).
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Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#22 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 amWell there are several. The specific thing here is if would be OK to have a (mostly) no-shot-overkill weapon system. Two variants I see: either missiles launch as usual (random weapon shots), so a beam weapon might generate shot-overkill on an enemy killed by a missile; or missiles shoot last - which would mean no shot-overkill by missiles at all. There might be a veto from the depths of history (the project leads). Start one thread if you like.
I'm totally fine with missiles firing last.

The issue with a target priority/target assignment system is that there doesn't seem to be a consensus as to hat it should look like. The main contenders are a new "targeting computer" part or to handle it through upcoming "policy cards". I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way and think both have advantages and disadvantages. I may start a thread on in soon, but I have enough on my plate at the moment.
Three bouts per turn (and hopefully soon four).

I mean it strikes me as only logical to plan for four bout combat if that's the case. However that might be a moot point...
If it is too effective/economical it becomes boring. I think early invasion should be possible and it is already hard to pull it off. So there needs to be a counter.
True, I was more trying to get to a point of thinking of what kind of RP and PP costs these techs and parts should have. I want missiles to be economical enough to justify their limitations.
If missiles target fighters as well one can use those as a counter (decoy shield). That could be a nice niche.

Currently we are going for: ships,planets and Bombers are attacking ships (but no fighters); the only way to attack fighters are flak and other Fighter/Interceptors; missiles could fill in for attacking both ships and fighters.
I think we are on the same page here.
So I would suggest: have missile launcher parts only (multi-)shoot in bout two, launcher by itself can shoot once - it gets refilled after battle from supply network or from "missile storage" part if you have one with four capacity. Normal missiles attack ships and fighters. Resupply of storage and launcher parts happens only in-allied-supply, if stationary and not in combat last turn. (?Note to self "on event=onShoot" effect?)
I think I grok what you are saying. Missiles would shoot on bout two, once, and not fire again. Thus particular missile launchers would only need to carry twice the number of shots they fire?

So something like the following:

Rocket Launcher
  • Slot: external
  • Shots: 2 missiles
  • Capacity: 4 missiles
Missile Tube
  • Slot: internal
  • Shots: 3 missiles
  • Capacity: 6 missiles
Torpedo Tube
  • Slot: internal
  • Shots: 4 missiles
  • Capacity: 8 missiles
Plasma-Bomb Tube
  • Slot: internal
  • Shots: 5 missiles
  • Capacity: 10 missiles
Warhead Storage
  • Slot: internal
  • Capacity: +10 missiles
Not sure if missiles should be shield-piercing or not.
I think I was considering them to not be shield-piercing, which I think I would prefer. Is there any reason they should be shield-piercing?
What could be prototyped with FOCS if I add the condition to query the current bout to the backend using fighters: can have multiple missile launcher launch bay and a single missile storage hangar which gets some extra capacity per launcher part. Normal missiles only target fighters OR ships and are shield-piercing. Resupply of storage and launcher parts happens only in-allied-supply, if stationary and not in combat last turn. Missiles can be shot down like fighters by flak,Fighters and Interceptors. If the ship was in combat, decrease the capacity storage capacity by the number of launcher parts (so this is where missiles are used up). Damage gets scaled to the number of bouts per turn.
If you can do non shield-piercing I think I'm totally on-board.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 amSo I would suggest: have missile launcher parts only (multi-)shoot in bout two, launcher by itself can shoot once - it gets refilled after battle from supply network or from "missile storage" part if you have one with four capacity. Normal missiles attack ships and fighters. Resupply of storage and launcher parts happens only in-allied-supply, if stationary and not in combat last turn.
labgnome wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:30 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 amNot sure if missiles should be shield-piercing or not.
I think I was considering them to not be shield-piercing, which I think I would prefer. Is there any reason they should be shield-piercing?
It could be one or the other (mostly a matter of balance).
labgnome wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:30 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 amWhat could be prototyped with FOCS if I add the condition to query the current bout to the backend using fighters: can have multiple missile launcher launch bay and a single missile storage hangar which gets some extra capacity per launcher part. Normal missiles only target fighters OR ships and are shield-piercing. Resupply of storage and launcher parts happens only in-allied-supply, if stationary and not in combat last turn. Missiles can be shot down like fighters by flak,Fighters and Interceptors. If the ship was in combat, decrease the capacity storage capacity by the number of launcher parts (so this is where missiles are used up). Damage gets scaled to the number of bouts per turn.
If you can do non shield-piercing I think I'm totally on-board.
SOTA FOCS-only fighters based implementation can only be shield-piercing. No way to stop a fighter from being shield-piercing. We could do 0-damage fighter implementation and count how many missiles got through and distribute that damage after combat between the enemies.. but let's rather not do that.

I did a FOCS-only implementation in PR-2710. Missiles launch in bout 1, can be shot down in bout 2 and do damage in bout 3. See details in the PR.

One thing I found is that the resupply seems to be hardcoded in the backend, so I can not put a specialized version for missiles in place. Timing of resupply also means I can not reuse fighter UI for showing the total amount of missiles available - supply happens after movement before combat. I first used the MaxCapacity of the hangar part to show the current storage - but it also meant that the launcher launched more missiles than it should have.

Another general thing with targeting conditions and UI and AI came up. Total damage calculation is off. Missiles do damage only once - but my targeting restricted fighter implementation does damage in bout two as well in UI and in AI estimation - so the estimation is double the real value.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#24 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 pmIt could be one or the other (mostly a matter of balance).
Well my preference is to have non shield-piercing so the damage boosts from techs is balanced against shield strength. However if we need to make them shield-piercing I suppose the damage could be scaled to armor parts instead? I just worry that having two out of three different weapon systems be shield-piercing will make shields mostly irrelevant. I'd personally rather have shields be a counter to missiles. I also feel that would again, make them too similar to fighters. What are your thoughts?
SOTA FOCS-only fighters based implementation can only be shield-piercing. No way to stop a fighter from being shield-piercing. We could do 0-damage fighter implementation and count how many missiles got through and distribute that damage after combat between the enemies.. but let's rather not do that.
That just sounds ugly, so yeah, let's not.
I did a FOCS-only implementation in PR-2710. Missiles launch in bout 1, can be shot down in bout 2 and do damage in bout 3. See details in the PR.
So this all looks good, and I like what I can see. How likely do you think it will be to see a version of this in a test version after 0.4.9 comes out? I'd like to test missiles out.

I've tried to compile before form github before and only met with failure. I have no idea what I am doing in that area.
One thing I found is that the resupply seems to be hardcoded in the backend, so I can not put a specialized version for missiles in place. Timing of resupply also means I can not reuse fighter UI for showing the total amount of missiles available - supply happens after movement before combat. I first used the MaxCapacity of the hangar part to show the current storage - but it also meant that the launcher launched more missiles than it should have.
This sounds acceptable for a stop-gap until we can get missile resupply to work how we want.
Another general thing with targeting conditions and UI and AI came up. Total damage calculation is off. Missiles do damage only once - but my targeting restricted fighter implementation does damage in bout two as well in UI and in AI estimation - so the estimation is double the real value.
That sounds potentially annoying, hopefully something that's solvable.

All-in-all I like what I am seeing. It looks like back-end work might be necessary to get to the best possible place but that we have most of the foundational work in place. I look forward to seeing where this can be taken.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#25 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 pmI did a FOCS-only implementation in PR-2710. Missiles launch in bout 1, can be shot down in bout 2 and do damage in bout 3. See details in the PR.
So this all looks good, and I like what I can see. How likely do you think it will be to see a version of this in a test version after 0.4.9 comes out? I'd like to test missiles out.
Do you have a linux system available?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#26 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:15 pm
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 pmI did a FOCS-only implementation in PR-2710. Missiles launch in bout 1, can be shot down in bout 2 and do damage in bout 3. See details in the PR.
So this all looks good, and I like what I can see. How likely do you think it will be to see a version of this in a test version after 0.4.9 comes out? I'd like to test missiles out.
Do you have a linux system available?
No, not anymore.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#27 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:31 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:15 pm
labgnome wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:29 pm
So this all looks good, and I like what I can see. How likely do you think it will be to see a version of this in a test version after 0.4.9 comes out? I'd like to test missiles out.
Do you have a linux system available?
No, not anymore.
As this is FOCS-only you do not need to compile and only need the FOCS files. Get the default folder from the pull request and point your resource directory in freeorion settings to it.

If you got git already setup you can do the following

Code: Select all

# create branch PR2710_Fighters from PR-2710 from origin remote 
git fetch origin  pull/2710/head:PR2710_Fighters
git checkout PR2710_Fighters
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#28 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:11 amAs this is FOCS-only you do not need to compile and only need the FOCS files. Get the default folder from the pull request and point your resource directory in freeorion settings to it.

If you got git already setup you can do the following

Code: Select all

# create branch PR2710_Fighters from PR-2710 from origin remote 
git fetch origin  pull/2710/head:PR2710_Fighters
git checkout PR2710_Fighters
??? What do you mean by "point your resource directory in freeorion settings to it". I understand exactly what none of that means.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#29 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:57 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:11 amAs this is FOCS-only you do not need to compile and only need the FOCS files. Get the default folder from the pull request and point your resource directory in freeorion settings to it.

If you got git already setup you can do the following

Code: Select all

# create branch PR2710_Fighters from PR-2710 from origin remote 
git fetch origin  pull/2710/head:PR2710_Fighters
git checkout PR2710_Fighters
??? What do you mean by "point your resource directory in freeorion settings to it". I understand exactly what none of that means.
In your freeorion settings there is a tab where you can set your directory paths. You can change the path of the default directory freeorion uses to another one (in this case the one from the PR). So you can use your installed freeorion with the default folder with the missile tech.

edit1:
There are more details about the resource directory in the wiki at FOCS_Scripting_Tutorial#Getting_Started

edit2:
in the meantime I also thought up a FOCS-only way to stop targeting exploding missiles, but it would mean to change all the weapons' target condition for all weapons which target fighters to check the bout and skip on the missile-launcher launched fighters.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#30 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:37 pmIn your freeorion settings there is a tab where you can set your directory paths. You can change the path of the default directory freeorion uses to another one (in this case the one from the PR). So you can use your installed freeorion with the default folder with the missile tech.
So I copy default folder to my hard drive then set Free Orion to use that one instead of the regular one?
in the meantime I also thought up a FOCS-only way to stop targeting exploding missiles, but it would mean to change all the weapons' target condition for all weapons which target fighters to check the bout and skip on the missile-launcher launched fighters.
I mean it's looking to me like missiles are entirely feasible and might have a place in Free Orion. I'll try testing them out soon. Hopefully I won't be the only one to do so.

I suppose the question is just how do we want missiles to work in Free Orion?

I'll lay out the points I want from missiles in the order of importance for me and maybe we can reach a general consensus.
  1. I want missiles to be a system of weapons with multiple options like fighters and direct weapons
  2. I want missiles to remain relevant throughout the game, so they should upgrade
  3. I want missiles to be more limited than direct weapons or fighters
  4. In the spirit of the previous point, I want the new default weapon to be a missile weapon
  5. I want missiles to be an economical choice
  6. I want missile-ships to be more specialized than gunships and more generalized than carriers
  7. I want most missile weapons in the mechanical technology theme
  8. I want most missile "warhead" upgrades in the energy technology theme
  9. I'd like a missile weapon in the biotechnology theme (a "macrospore" launcher) and the energy theme (a "plasma bomb" launcher)
  10. I'd like a final missile upgrade in the void technology theme
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