New species trait: hull engineers

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

New species trait: hull engineers

#1 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:59 am

We have the species pilot trait that give bonus/malus to damage of weapons, which affects the value of weapons in the ship designs so that good pilot species might prefer a greater weapon/armour parts on their designs.

We could have the same for the hull structure and/or armour parts:
- bad hulls/armours: -20% base structure
- good: +20%
- great: +40%
- ultimate: +60%

To be decided if it should affect only the base structure of the hull or also the base structure of the armour parts.

Thoughts?

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#2 Post by labgnome » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:45 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:59 am
We have the species pilot trait that give bonus/malus to damage of weapons, which affects the value of weapons in the ship designs so that good pilot species might prefer a greater weapon/armour parts on their designs.

We could have the same for the hull structure and/or armour parts:
- bad hulls/armours: -20% base structure
- good: +20%
- great: +40%
- ultimate: +60%

To be decided if it should affect only the base structure of the hull or also the base structure of the armour parts.

Thoughts?
In general I like the idea. I think you could pair bad engineers with good pilots and get a species built for offence, while doing the opposite to get a species built for defense. Also, maybe Chato could be bad engineers instead of bad pilots?
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#3 Post by em3 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:18 am

This makes very little sense thematically. Couldn't, in a multi species empire, another species be used to make ships that aren't crap for the good pilots species?

Maybe make this about the species recklessness vs cautiousness? Cautious species would use more durable (and more expensive) variations of hulls, while reckless (for lack of a better word) would prefer cheaper but less durable design?
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#4 Post by Oberlus » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:00 am

em3 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:18 am
This makes very little sense thematically. Couldn't, in a multi species empire, another species be used to make ships that aren't crap for the good pilots species?

Maybe make this about the species recklessness vs cautiousness? Cautious species would use more durable (and more expensive) variations of hulls, while reckless (for lack of a better word) would prefer cheaper but less durable design?
I think the same, makes little sense, but can't find a satisfying solution because the good pilot species traits makes also little sense:
Couldn't the cautious (good hulls) species build the ships for the crazy pilots (good weapons) species?

Maybe both traits (structure and damage) could be made to change both effectiveness and cost.

User avatar
Krikkitone
Creative Contributor
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#5 Post by Krikkitone » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:49 am

Theme wise it works because the engineers need to be On the ship to maintain it, just like the pilots have to be there to operate it. And because they are sharing the same environment, they must be the same species.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#6 Post by em3 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 am

Krikkitone wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:49 am
Theme wise it works because the engineers need to be On the ship to maintain it, just like the pilots have to be there to operate it. And because they are sharing the same environment, they must be the same species.
I mean, it's not like the same people that built a ship will be maintaining it? The shipwrights and support crew are usually different people.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1089
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#7 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:41 am

em3 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 am
Krikkitone wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:49 am
Theme wise it works because the engineers need to be On the ship to maintain it, just like the pilots have to be there to operate it. And because they are sharing the same environment, they must be the same species.
I mean, it's not like the same people that built a ship will be maintaining it? The shipwrights and support crew are usually different people.
You could call those ship operators or technicians or name the trait GOOD_SHIP_MAINTENANCE
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#8 Post by labgnome » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:44 am

em3 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 am
Krikkitone wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:49 am
Theme wise it works because the engineers need to be On the ship to maintain it, just like the pilots have to be there to operate it. And because they are sharing the same environment, they must be the same species.
I mean, it's not like the same people that built a ship will be maintaining it? The shipwrights and support crew are usually different people.
But in our case they are "the same people" from a game perspective. Ships are always crewed by the species that built them, so having bad/good/great/ultimate engineer traits makes sense gameplay wise.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5098
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#9 Post by Vezzra » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:02 pm

labgnome wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:44 am
But in our case they are "the same people" from a game perspective. Ships are always crewed by the species that built them, so having bad/good/great/ultimate engineer traits makes sense gameplay wise.
This.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#10 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:45 pm

So I see general consensus is the idea deserve attention.

The naming and fluff:
Maybe use Krikkitone's (implicit) idea that the extra structure is due to the good design and also the maintenance that the technicians perform onboard, including or specially during combat. So it's not only manufacturing the ship, but also crewing it.
So the species trait could be something like Bad/Good/etc. Engineers.

A detailed comparison with the Pilots species trait effect on Short Range weapons, to try to balance the values in a similar way:

Each weapon refinement gives +1, +2, +3 and +5 for MD, Laser, Plasma and DR respectively. Let's call this values the Damage Per Refinement (DPR). Each weapon (except laser) starts at 3*DPR damage and then can get up to thre extra tech refinements, ending at damage 6*DPR. Each level of Pilots gives (or takes) one level of refinement, so +1*DPR. In the end, we have an Ultimate-Pilot, non-refined weapon does +100% damage compared to the Average-Pilot counterpart, and +50% for fully-refined weapons. I make rest of calculations for fully upgraded Short Range weapons, which is the most common scenario. So Good Pilots give +16.7% damage over Average Pilots, Great Pilots +33.3%, Ultimate Pilots +50%.

It seems to make sense if we make Engineers to provide the same boost to structure: -16.7, +16.6, +33% and +50%.

Since Pilots affects every weapon part mounted on a ship, it makes sense for the Engineers to affect armour parts as well. The question could be if it should affect also the base hull structure. I think it should, or at least it's harmless: if fearing that it could make it OP against Pilots trait, consider that the base hull structure is usually a small percentage of total ship's structure or is small when compared to the average damage per shot, therefore it has little effect of the outcome (except for some hulls, and that is good for strategic ship design).

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#11 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:42 pm

ArmourStrengthinc. per level (1/6)
Standard6+1
Zortrium11+2
Diamond18+3
Xentronium30+5
Seems pretty straightforward: if one species has the same level of Pilots than the Engineer of the enemies both effects/advantages are cancelled.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#12 Post by em3 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:50 pm

Should drydock at a bad engineering species planet fix ships of other species only partially? :wink:
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1770
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#13 Post by Oberlus » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:18 pm

em3 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:50 pm
Should drydock at a bad engineering species planet fix ships of other species only partially? :wink:
The trait does not affect repair rate, maybe it's a good idea :wink:
Or we could look for a better name. Combat Engineers?

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: New species trait: hull engineers

#14 Post by labgnome » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:25 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:18 pm
em3 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:50 pm
Should drydock at a bad engineering species planet fix ships of other species only partially? :wink:
The trait does not affect repair rate, maybe it's a good idea :wink:
Or we could look for a better name. Combat Engineers?
This may be over-thinking it. Remember we don't want to make this over-complicated. Usually species traits effect only one thing at a time.

Also as far as names go I'd go with just "engineers" as it feels similar to just "pilots".
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

Post Reply