0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

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ovarwa
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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#16 Post by ovarwa » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:12 am

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:09 am
ovarwa wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:21 pm
IA
What's IA?
Oops, Adaptive Automation.

ovarwa
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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#17 Post by ovarwa » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:23 am

Hi,

Another point about the Sly is that they can postpone the green population techs more easily than other factions, because it will be a long time before they can colonize anything other than a gas giant. These techs are admittedly cheap, but only really boost the homeworld in the early game. Still nice to have, but in a pinch, it's something that can be postponed.

Anyway,

Ken

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#18 Post by defaultuser » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:41 am

Orbital Generation is also important for Sly, as any world they have colonized can of course use a Gas Giant Generator.

ovarwa
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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#19 Post by ovarwa » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:01 am

And a space elevator on strategic world can help with supply when you finally want some.

I tried them with 049 this evening, and the new fuel rules definitely make them harder to play. My ships were almost never in supply, even in my own systems, so slow refueling was needed after 2-4 hops. I was able to overcome this, but the Sly are definitely not easy mode!

That's the thing with Sly: It's not that they are weak, but that they are difficult to play, requiring engagement with smaller corners of the rules that can usually be ignored.

They also expose some UI issues: My fleets were coming up ready to engage, but I wanted them in stealth mode so had to set them by hand. There is no obvious button to make this happen; the new fleet setting does not help.

And then there was the Dyson Forest that ignored my stealthy colony ship but attacked my more stealthy (rating 55) Bio-Adaptive carrier, even though it was set to not engage. This occurred multiple times, so it wasn't that I didn't set the fleet properly. I also had a planet in the combat, which might have made a difference, yet there had been no combat between the planet and the forest until my ship appeared. (And I had not researched any of the defense techs.)

They play very differently from other factions. They expand. The Sly metastasize.

My usual ballpark measure of power is (research + industry)/turn, ignoring the first 30-40 turns. After that, power tends to dip below 2 and approach but not reach 1 before rising again. I like to hit 2 around turn 80, but turn 100 is more reasonable. Power escalates rapidly at that point. With the Sly, I had to work at it, but I hit 2 at turn 99 and reached 3 by turn 110. I haven't yet conquered any planets or researched Exobots because I've only started to accumulate the fleets (bio-adaptive + zort + laser + fuel + stealth + (bomber or interceptor)) I need to cleanse my space of enemy ships; I'm also researching the Psionics tree, since none of my 50 research comes from research focus. So I expect the usual sort of power curve.

On another topic, my Bio-Adaptive ships feel very much like my Robotic Hull ships (2zort + laser + fightercraft). They start with less structure, but will have a tad more in 50 turns; I think this makes the Robo better. Both ships heal, but the bios are better at it, and they are also stealthy. They're also cheap, and regenerate fuel, which is usually a ribbon but not for the Sly. They also move faster. But they take a lot of research to reach, and also require 2 dedicated structures. Overall, I think they're better ships, probably the best deal in the organic family, but not in the same league as the other penultimate ships. I have not researched the unhealing side of the organic tree because I wanted stealth for my colonizers, and I'm not sure it's worth bothering with Sentient Hulls once I've conquered good researchers.

Anyway,

Ken

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#20 Post by Oberlus » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:07 pm

ovarwa wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:01 am
the new fuel rules definitely make [Sly] harder to play. My ships were almost never in supply, even in my own systems, so slow refueling was needed after 2-4 hops. I was able to overcome this, but the Sly are definitely not easy mode!
I'm playing with Sly for first time after fuel changes, and it is certainly a liability for them. With nearest GG at 5 hops behind a monster and going bio hulls to sneak past them (which was my way of playing Sly before) means you expand rather slow: wait for the techs, the orbital incubator and the ship itself to be finished, it will need some 10 turns to travel those 5 hops because of the low fuel of all bio hulls. The Symbiotic Hull with an stealth part and the colony part can't mount any fuel part. The protoplasmic, with 3 internal slots, can mount one fuel part that reduces the travel time, but still so slow.
Having some more fuel (or better fuel efficiency) in the Symbiotic Hull would be great.

there was the Dyson Forest that ignored my stealthy colony ship but attacked my more stealthy (rating 55) Bio-Adaptive carrier, even though it was set to not engage. This occurred multiple times, so it wasn't that I didn't set the fleet properly. I also had a planet in the combat, which might have made a difference, yet there had been no combat between the planet and the forest until my ship appeared. (And I had not researched any of the defense techs.)
I think that's worth opening an issue on github with a save file to replicate, if you have it.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#21 Post by jadwin » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:19 pm

defaultuser wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:41 am
Orbital Generation is also important for Sly, as any world they have colonized can of course use a Gas Giant Generator.
But the increase in industrie is only worth 5. All other races gaine 10. The bonus is also reduced for conquered alien races.

Ophiuchus
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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#22 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:32 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:07 pm
ovarwa wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:01 am
the new fuel rules definitely make [Sly] harder to play. My ships were almost never in supply, even in my own systems, so slow refueling was needed after 2-4 hops. I was able to overcome this, but the Sly are definitely not easy mode!
I'm playing with Sly for first time after fuel changes, and it is certainly a liability for them. With nearest GG at 5 hops behind a monster and going bio hulls to sneak past them (which was my way of playing Sly before)
Flux bubble (robotic prod + 24RP) should be the way to go until detection 30 if the hops allow for flux cover. 6 fuel and 35 stealth with the first stealth tech (else 25 stealth).

For detection 50 you mostly need the second stealth tech which you get after 700RP Intelligence tech, so quite late. Protoplasmic is 90RP extra to the symbiotic.
Camouflage asteroid hull (100RP) with two average efficiency fuel parts looks is a comparable option to the protoplasmic if you find a GG with an asteroid belt (and a lot better if the monster is in a asteroid containing system .. +40 stealth!!! - means you do not need stealth tech and could go with 3 fuel parts).
The other option is spending another 650 RP after symbiotic to get bioadaptive hull, then you need only the first stealth tech (200RP from the start) - so this is also an option. But this is quite late middle game(?) so I guess you meant detection 30.

Building refill outposts helps if you have the PP to spend.

Some ideas for extra options: Maybe we could have a second external refill tech so you get organic, ramscoop plus the extra refill (if you are willing to invest the PP). Or more galactic features for extra refill without special parts (e.g. the growth specials) - so stealthily refilling hidden from a sentry would likely happen. Or another "defensive" (i.e. external) stealth part with +10 extra stealth would at least boost the protoplasmic (2 slots free for good efficiency fuel at 35 stealth or only needing the first stealth tech to reach 55 stealth).

jadwin wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:19 pm
defaultuser wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:41 am
Orbital Generation is also important for Sly, as any world they have colonized can of course use a Gas Giant Generator.
But the increase in industrie is only worth 5. All other races gaine 10. The bonus is also reduced for conquered alien races.
That also means if you have a system with multiple gas giants you may want to keep one of them an outpost only (at least for a while) and build the GG generator there to get the full +10 industry bonus.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#23 Post by jadwin » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:18 pm

I'm not saying Sly does not work. But is there anyone in this forum saying, Sly is my favorit race? It is a matter of micro balancing. I still think Sly is a bit to weak.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#24 Post by Oberlus » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:30 pm

jadwin wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:18 pm
I'm not saying Sly does not work. But is there anyone in this forum saying, Sly is my favorit race? It is a matter of micro balancing. I still think Sly is a bit to weak.
I can't tell.
Against AI, if I'm Sly I know I can't lose, it's impossible, because AI does not cope well with planetary stealth (in which Sly excels) and mines. I can be the slowest learner in the galaxy (at start) that I know I will overcome every other empire, a matter of time, because AI will never give the right priority to detection techs (will get it, eventually, when it has most other techs, but by that time you can have a fleet of invisible ships deleting the AIs armies with very little loses).
Against human players I have never played Sly (but I want!) and the only Sly empire I remember roght now is currently doing well (Hyperant, in the seventh game of the slow-game server), for what I can tell.
Sly have poorer expansion capabilities at start but are the best to work with disperse empires and close to immune to supply blockade. Their poor espansion capabilities get fixed mid game through research (orbital elevator, better hulls), or sooner if they can conquer another species soon enough.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#25 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:38 pm

jadwin wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:18 pm
I'm not saying Sly does not work. But is there anyone in this forum saying, Sly is my favorit race? It is a matter of micro balancing. I still think Sly is a bit to weak.
Sly are definitly my favorite race for peaceful expansion.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#26 Post by jadwin » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:58 am

Sly are definitly my favorite race for peaceful expansion.
Why don't you play laenfa for peaceful expansion? I find them much stronger. More planets to colonize, better fuel, better population, phototropic population bonus, better intelligence, better stock pile using, better sience, better ships. Only the refuelling on gas planets, better defensive troops, the posibilty to colonize gas planets are the adantages on sly. Does this realy count?

In the later game sly have the disadvante that colonized gas planets count only 5 industrie for the orbital energy improvement.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#27 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:45 pm

jadwin wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:58 am
Sly are definitly my favorite race for peaceful expansion.
Why don't you play laenfa for peaceful expansion? I find them much stronger. More planets to colonize, better fuel, better population, phototropic population bonus, better intelligence, better stock pile using, better sience, better ships. Only the refuelling on gas planets, better defensive troops, the posibilty to colonize gas planets are the adantages on sly. Does this realy count?

In the later game sly have the disadvante that colonized gas planets count only 5 industrie for the orbital energy improvement.
Laenfa are really easy to play if the galaxy is not ancient. I will just mention a few technical things.

The main bonus is that sly are the only ones able to live on GG. Every Gasgiant is equivalent in habitability to a good "large planet" (9 pop from the beginning) and you can build a GGG on it.

Expand into the gas giants in enemy supply before they have the tech to stop you. Find the ancient ruins before somebody else does.
There are many species you can obtain for the other environments if you want, for GG you need the mostly unobtainable Sly.

If you want the +10 bonus from GGG just simply do not put Sly on that GG.

If everybody thinks Sly are underpowered compared to the other species, we could give a boost. Maybe good maximum fuel (+0.5 for average), which would enhance the capability to press colonization even faster outwards quite a lot I think. If that is too strong (or too similar to Fulver) we could add the good_speed trait to sly if we implement it.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#28 Post by Oberlus » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:04 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:45 pm
If everybody thinks Sly are underpowered compared to the other species, we could give a boost. Maybe good maximum fuel (+0.5 for average), which would enhance the capability to press colonization even faster outwards quite a lot I think. If that is too strong (or too similar to Fulver) we could add the good_speed trait to sly if we implement it.
Iff most people find Sly UP, I like the extra fuel for balance. I think it kinda fits with their role of silent galaxy explorers, goes very well with their main limitation (supply), and it is not a key feature regarding combat or production so can't make them OP.
jadwin wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:58 am
Why don't you play laenfa for peaceful expansion? I find them much stronger. More planets to colonize, better fuel, better population, phototropic population bonus, better intelligence, better stock pile using, better sience, better ships.
[...]
In the later game sly have the disadvante that colonized gas planets count only 5 industrie for the orbital energy improvement.
Adding to Ophiucus:
Late game the GG bonus is not that great, when you are getting tens of PPs per industry-focused planet (depending on planet size). And Sly's GGs excel at size. They start with pop 9 as good large planet (size 4), but some of the techs take it the base size as 6 (bigger than huge planets, that count as 5) and others as 3 (actually, as six with a -50% malus), so on average it is larger than a good larger planet. If you rush certain population boost techs and early colonisation of most GGs, your population will have a nice growth.

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Re: 0.4.9 thoughts after an evening

#29 Post by jadwin » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:00 pm

I see the point that sly is the only race wich can coloynize gas giants. They are realy big so they have a great bonus on all colonize techs. But they are the only race that can not use specials on planets. There are no specials on gas giants.

It is possible to play and win as sly, but I still think they are weaker than all other races.

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