Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

Creation, discussion, and balancing of game content such as techs, buildings, ship parts.

Moderators: Oberlus, Committer

Message
Author
Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3420
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#16 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:46 am Problem with scanning/sending scouts to a precise location is that it's fun early game when you have a limited number of ships and has to strategize where you'll send them (and also when losing one due to enemy ambush is a big loss), but it becomes a chore later on when you have lot of ships and sending a scout everywhere doesn't cost anything except more player micromanagement.
it is certainly possible to fine-tune this to e.g. a certain detection level (tech/policy bonus - which one can use to remove the need for sending scouts). E.g. with a small stealth bonus, scanning is only necessary for the simple case (unstealthed native colony/planet) if you did not e.g. yet research active scanners (because highest scanning bonus is smaller than detection increase by that tech).
LienRag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:50 am I tested a part ("Gravitic Resonator" or something similar) that reduces Stealth in systems with Tiny planets and also (though less so) in systems with small planets.
... if you want stealth, avoid some systems, and if you want to be sure not to be ambushed, prefer some systems.
i like such situational ways to affect stealth / galaxy layout
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#17 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:11 pm
LienRag wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:50 am I tested a part ("Gravitic Resonator" or something similar) that reduces Stealth in systems with Tiny planets and also (though less so) in systems with small planets.
... if you want stealth, avoid some systems, and if you want to be sure not to be ambushed, prefer some systems.
i like such situational ways to affect stealth / galaxy layout
Tends to stop working so well when detection ranges grow beyond 100 uu. There's simply no way to jump the gaps. Its different with on planet terrain where you have a large block of forest. Here you've got individual pts surrounded by large areas of no-go zones.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3420
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:07 am There's a 2nd timing issue with buildings. On the turn I finished building a radar on my furthest colony it was showing as stealth = 5
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:57 am visibility processing:
  • ...
  • influence/ship/buildings are produced, python effects are applied, then FOCS effects are once again applied (AFAIK to set meters for newly created objects), then meter growth happens (PopGrowth..), visibility maps (objects, stale objects, lanes) are recalculated,
hm, there should be no timing issues there (in theory) based on code analysis. species effects should kick in after creating the building and before visibility maps are calculated. also could not recreate that. please provide a screenshot/savefile next time this occurs.

Side note: in Empire::CheckProductionProgress some lower level functions are called, but i dont think those update visibility maps. ( universe.InsertNew<Building>; planet->AddBuilding(building->ID()); system->Insert(building); )
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#19 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:01 pm
wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:07 am There's a 2nd timing issue with buildings. On the turn I finished building a radar on my furthest colony it was showing as stealth = 5
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:57 am visibility processing:
  • ...
  • influence/ship/buildings are produced, python effects are applied, then FOCS effects are once again applied (AFAIK to set meters for newly created objects), then meter growth happens (PopGrowth..), visibility maps (objects, stale objects, lanes) are recalculated,
hm, there should be no timing issues there (in theory) based on code analysis. species effects should kick in after creating the building and before visibility maps are calculated. also could not recreate that. please provide a screenshot/savefile next time this occurs.
It was during 20th MP. If you are unable to produce in current master I'll assume the issue is gone unless I see it again in a latter build.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#20 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:16 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:11 pm i like such situational ways to affect stealth / galaxy layout
Tends to stop working so well when detection ranges grow beyond 100 uu. There's simply no way to jump the gaps. Its different with on planet terrain where you have a large block of forest. Here you've got individual pts surrounded by large areas of no-go zones.
You've got a point, but it's not entirely true on this particular topic (nor with Gas Giants which my first situational stealth proposal was about) : systems with no tiny planets are really abundant.
Also the goal is not to allow people to go entirely undetected, but to create uncertainty about where they are.
That is, you may see an enemy fleet moving from one stealthed position to another, but if there are many Gas Giant or Asteroid Fields (depending on the situational stealth source used) nearby, you can't know where it went, just where it isn't.
That's enough to create tactical or even strategic tension.

But it's also one of the reasons I am opposed to the mechanism of in-flight detection that we have now : it removes the holes in detection that were created by the displacement of scouts in earlier versions.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#21 Post by wobbly »

Some research numbers:

Lasers: researchcost = 30 * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
Zortrium Armour: researchcost=30 * TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER,
Active Radar: researchcost = 50 * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
Stealth Part 1: researchcost = 50 * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
Planetary Stealth 1: researchcost = (100 - (50 * Statistic If condition = And [ Source OwnerHasTech name = "SPY_STEALTH_PART_1" ])
) * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]] / (1 + Statistic If condition = And [ OwnedBy empire = Source.Owner HasTag name = "SNEAKY" ])

First question: Why is the cost for the 1st detection tech more then researching the next weapon or armour tier and is it actually a good thing?

Second question: What terrible things would it do to balance if the 1st detection and stealth part matched the 1st weapon part (with the 1st planetary stealth still = to 2 * active radar)

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#22 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:03 pm First question: Why is the cost for the 1st detection tech more then researching the next weapon or armour tier and is it actually a good thing?
I believe it is indeed a good thing, as a new weapon or armour is not a game-changer (it helps the one with it, yes, of course, but it's still counterable) while in the current system where detection/stealth is binary, Detection techs are indeed game-changers.


wobbly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:03 pm Second question: What terrible things would it do to balance if the 1st detection and stealth part matched the 1st weapon part (with the 1st planetary stealth still = to 2 * active radar)
I believe that it would make researching Active Radar very quickly even more of a no-brainer and make the Stealth of Symbiotics even more useless.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#23 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:52 pm
wobbly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:03 pm Second question: What terrible things would it do to balance if the 1st detection and stealth part matched the 1st weapon part (with the 1st planetary stealth still = to 2 * active radar)
I believe that it would make researching Active Radar very quickly even more of a no-brainer and make the Stealth of Symbiotics even more useless.
Counter argument. Most players aren't researching Active Radar very quickly.
research.png
research.png (830.51 KiB) Viewed 2640 times

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5683
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#24 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:03 pm Some research numbers:

Lasers: researchcost = 30 * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
Zortrium Armour: researchcost=30 * TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER,
Active Radar: researchcost = 50 * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
Stealth Part 1: researchcost = 50 * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
Planetary Stealth 1: researchcost = (100 - (50 * Statistic If condition = And [ Source OwnerHasTech name = "SPY_STEALTH_PART_1" ])
) * [[TECH_COST_MULTIPLIER]] / (1 + Statistic If condition = And [ OwnedBy empire = Source.Owner HasTag name = "SNEAKY" ])

First question: Why is the cost for the 1st detection tech more then researching the next weapon or armour tier and is it actually a good thing?

Second question: What terrible things would it do to balance if the 1st detection and stealth part matched the 1st weapon part (with the 1st planetary stealth still = to 2 * active radar)
Laser techs 30 (+20+30+50 = 130 RP).
Zortrium 30 RP (maybe should be a bit more expensive...).
Active Radar 50 RP is like Laser1+Zortrium. Depending on context, I'll go for one or the other: Need to see a natives world I want to invade ASAP? Then Active Radar first. Need to kill a monster or strong native defenses, or an enemy is close, so I'll need to build army fast? Then Laser1+Zortrium+Hull (usually symbiotics, sometimes robos). Usually, I get first the weapons and armor.
Making Active Radar cheaper than L1+Zortrium (it's already cheaper) doesn't seem right to me. The earnings from using laser+zor instead of MD+standard is good, but getting early access to certain natives is also good.

I think we already talked about detaching stealth parts from detection techs?
So 50 RP to get first stealth part, instead of 50(Active Radar)+50.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#25 Post by LienRag »

32 to 40 turns for most players, so quite quickly in my book...
Considering that one has 10 turns of peaceful development at least, it does leave a very narrow window for trying to use stealth below 30.

Again, if your opponent goes Zortrium or Laser before you, he gets ahead but your ships are still useful and any fight you planned will probably work (and more, you have a few turns before his new ships can get into the fight).
If your opponent gets the next Detection level, the turn after that everything you planned based on stealth becomes moot immediately.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#26 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:09 pm I think we already talked about detaching stealth parts from detection techs?
So 50 RP to get first stealth part, instead of 50(Active Radar)+50.
There's always the less drastic approach of moving all the pre-reqs down 1 detection tier. I'd like to test this as a simple easy to add starting point.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5683
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#27 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:44 am There's always the less drastic approach of moving all the pre-reqs down 1 detection tier. I'd like to test this as a simple easy to add starting point.
+1

So stealth_part_1 requires nothing, stealth_part_2 requires detect_1... Right?

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#28 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:47 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:44 am There's always the less drastic approach of moving all the pre-reqs down 1 detection tier. I'd like to test this as a simple easy to add starting point.
+1

So stealth_part_1 requires nothing, stealth_part_2 requires detect_1... Right?
Yes that's what I meant

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3420
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#29 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:41 pm It was during 20th MP. If you are unable to produce in current master I'll assume the issue is gone unless I see it again in a latter build.
If I am not very mistaken there were no changes to processing there since 20th MP
So from my point of view what you saw was impossible
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2072
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#30 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:47 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:44 am There's always the less drastic approach of moving all the pre-reqs down 1 detection tier. I'd like to test this as a simple easy to add starting point.
+1
So stealth_part_1 requires nothing, stealth_part_2 requires detect_1... Right?
I believe it would require thinking more thoroughly about balancing stealth and detection and how to decouple them, but if you want to test this quite simple solution I'm fine with it.

Post Reply