Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

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Ophiuchus
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Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

A list of all effects currently in the game intended as an overview, (some) with suggested changes (WIP)

Ways to increase/decrease own planetary stealth
  • -20/+20/+40 BAD_, GOOD_, GREAT_STEALTH species --> as is now, but +7 on outpost
  • +20/+40/+60/+80 SPY_STEALTH_1 (cloud cover special), _2, _3, _4 (160_/330_/700_/1200_) (100_/200_/500_/1000)
  • +15 PLC_NO_SUPPLY (economic category 25i) (not for outposts) (unlocked by interstellar logistics;75;40)
  • (( +15 FOCUS_STEALTH is not possible to obtain ))
  • +10 PLC_ENVIRONMENTALISM (economic category 10i-34i-100i-pop) (not for outposts,asteroids,gas giants,terraformed planets; only if focus is not industry) (unlocked by terraform;100;50;12)
  • +5 PLC_ISOLATION (social category 5i-20i-50i-col) (not for outposts) (unlocked by PLC_PLANETARY_INFRA 30i)
  • +5 always (SPY_PLANET_STEALTH_MOD)
  • +0 FOCUS_PROTECTION --> +0 to +7; min(+turns_since_focus, +7)
  • +0 launching visible ships --> -5
Note on policy cost scaling: 25pop-289pop-2500pop; 1col-16col-100col
Note on tech cost: the new values are higher, but in reality lower, as RULE_TECH_COST_FACTOR went from 2.0 to 1.0. The change was mostly to address the new empire growth curve coming from influence restrictions (before it was pretty much exponential)

Changes coming from universe
  • +40 FLD_ION_STORM
  • +20 FLD_NEBULA
  • +20 to +60 added stealth specials by monster (depending on best empire detection level)
Ways to decrease enemy planetary stealth
  • +0 scanning a system --> -0 up to -7; max(-turns_since_arrival, -7)
  • -30 BLD_LIGHTHOUSE --> -0 up to -10 ; max(-age_of_building, -10) & decrease stealth of ships by -30
Ways to increase detection
  • +20/+40/+60/+190 SPY_DETECT_2, _3, _4, _5 (90/330/840/1600)(50/200/400/1000) -> add SPY_DETECT_6 [+20/+40/+60/+80/+190] (90/330/840/1600/2500)
  • +0 to +20, range +5 +0 to +10 PLC_CONTINUOUS_SCANNING (military category), range +10 -> decreasing stealth each turn by -1 up to -20
  • +0 to +20 PLC_CHECKPOINTS (economic category 10i-25i-55i-col) decrease stealth of foreign ships; see below
  • +10 PANOPTICUM special
  • +10 always (SPY_DETECT_1)
Other ways to get visibility
  • communal vision (full vis)
  • derelict scout event (full vis) --> should not give visibility to stealthed planets (those with stealth > 5)
  • scrying sphere (partial vis)
  • precognition (basic vis)
  • telepathy (basic vis)
  • haematic telepathy (basic vis)
Ways to decrease enemy ship stealth (Note this is mostly off-topic)
  • -0 to -20 to non-allied planets in own supply PLC_CHECKPOINTS (economic category 10i-25i-55i-col) (boosted detection before; see above)
  • ...
GREAT STEALTH species: Sly (gas giants, independent happiness, bad supply, starts with and likes confederation) natives: Furthest (need supply for colonization, independent happiness, likes PLC_ENVIRONMENTALISM,PLC_ISOLATION,PLC_NO_SUPPLY), Setinon (likes FOCUS_PROTECTION, PLC_CONFEDERATION)

GOOD STEALTH species: Etty,Laenfa (sneaky),Trith natives: Fiftyseven,Lembalam,Nightsiders,Nymmm,Thenian extinct natives: Banforo

Invasion currently is possible starting from Visibility::VIS_BASIC_VISIBILITY

TODOs
  • investigate when (and why) visibility updates are sent to clients --> AFAICS the maps info (object map and stale object map) is send only once to normal players at the end of PostCombat processing. So in-between info leaking could only occur by the stale map and by observing effects.
  • also check how multiple rounds of visibility updates works --> see post later on
(future) implementation notes
  • add a sitrep for each stealthed planet when discovering it (e.g. when entering the system or coming into range the first time)
  • add another sitrep for each stealthed planet when the derelict scout event happens (so on can turn those on/off independently)
  • add a sitrep when a scout maxes out scanning potential (i.e. if your intention was to explore the system, you probably want to send the scout further)
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:31 pm, edited 29 times in total.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

A note: in 0.4.10 we had very few cases where detection == stealth, so it was (mostly) evident when visibility was possible and when not.

With the growth of detection with the policies, the case detection == stealth will happen more often, so i think we need a solution for that.


Either: decide and communicate clearly what detection == stealth means.

Or: prevent the case of equal value by e.g. detection value always being odd and stealth value always being even, so increases happen not with +1 but with +2

edit1: below, geoff noted objections, especially that their might be additional effects which are not naturally scaled by two e.g. age - so we should not go for the odd/even solution. will go for detection >= stealth means detected and we need to document that
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Some things I try with suggested changes: defense focus giving some stealth advantage, but that should be counterable by scanning the system (letting a ship sit for some turns).

Outposts are invisible by default, but easy to uncover (either by adopting a policy or scanning the system for three turns).
Basic colonies are actually more visible than small military outposts.
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Ophiuchus
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Notes: if not nerfing BLD_LIGHTHOUSE, we could make FOCUS_STEALTH available --> +0 to +20; min(+turns_since_focus, +20); no supply; no mines; half detection range; dont attack if there is combat(?) - maybe defense gets converted to shields (shield += previous defense / weapon_damage_mult * structure_mult) ;

In that case, PLC_NO_SUPPLY + FOCUS_STEALTH should give not both full bonus; rather up to +25 instead of up to +35

in that case, systems where all planets are hidden are much harder to crack.

we should add then some agency of opening up such hidden places. e.g. ways of creating instability. the planet cant switch to defense if focus on stealth is necessary, so the easiest way to address stability problems also opens up the stealth armour

edit: added reasoning for focus stealth decisions
  • supply lines show where the a stealthed planet is --> zero supply for stealth focus planet
  • if mines are triggered in an uninhabited system there is someone hiding --> stealth focus planet does not trigger mines effect (other planets in the same system still can)
  • if in a combat an uninhabited planet participates there is someone hiding --> zero defense max meter for stealth focus planet (in order not to nerf convert that to shields max meter instead)
  • half detection range ... forgot why wanted that... maybe because of xenophobic harassment? could/should exempt such a stealthed planet from harassing others???
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wobbly
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#5 Post by wobbly »

I'd prefer stealth focus to defense focus adding stealth, so it's 1 or the other. Keep in mind that you can trigger planet defenses on stealthed planets by sacrificing a corvette or similar ship.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#6 Post by wobbly »

+1 to enforcing odds/even stealth/detection

Etty level stealth for outposts could be interesting? Helps sly use outposts without giving them full sly stealth. Gives extra reason to get detection tech early and makes hiding outposts with tech possible.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:00 am Keep in mind that you can trigger planet defenses on stealthed planets by sacrificing a corvette or similar ship.
? not sure what you mean.

what I would want

1) for stealth focus: planet can not participate in/trigger combat (and my guess is that can be facilitated by setting defense to zero) ; this colony tries to be hidden no matter the cost

2) for defense focus: planet can participate in/trigger in combat (same rules as for stealthed ships) ; this colony still contributes to the supply networks and is ready to engage in battle, everybody is just waiting for the enemy to arrive

reasoning for having big stealth bonus from stealth focus and low stealth bonus for protection focus: bonus for protection would be thematical (e.g. people go live in the hidden bunkers) and balancing wise it is benign - there is a higher stealth bonus to be gained by focus and they don't stack
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#8 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:57 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:00 am Keep in mind that you can trigger planet defenses on stealthed planets by sacrificing a corvette or similar ship.
? not sure what you mean.
What I mean is that when a stealthed planet is blockaded, no combat occurs as the enemy can't see it. However if the owner sends in a sacrificial ship the planet defenses assist in the combat (e.g. the ship triggers the defenses). In the following rounds the planets defenses start regenerating even if blockaded (as no combat is occurring). A stealthed planet on defense can be a strong weapon as you can't prevent defenses regenerating, hence why I'd prefer defense focus not giving additional stealth.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:00 pm [A stealthed planet on defense can be a strong weapon as you can't prevent defenses regenerating, hence why I'd prefer defense focus not giving additional stealth.
The suggested max bonus is +7.
So usually an effect kicks in at +5 (so after being five turns on protection).
The enemy can counter that by scanning (up to -7), so usually you will break that effect after two turns of scanning. So about two turns of defense regeneration if the attacker does the right thing.
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

While pondering of having different levels of visibility I was also thinking that I do not really know how the timing of visibility works. I think there multiple times in between turns that visibility information was send to the clients.
And I remember some related between turn calculation strangeness (stuff suddenly being visible and vanishing again.)

For hidden colonisation it is important that the stealth meters get adjusted before visibility information is sent the first time.
If that is so may be add e.g. 200 stealth (only on the first turn of colonisation) with very early priority and remove 200 stealth with late priority.
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#11 Post by wobbly »

There's a 2nd timing issue with buildings. On the turn I finished building a radar on my furthest colony it was showing as stealth = 5

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

One more idea to strengthen the roles of scout ships vs other kinds of ships:
  • increase base planetary stealth (or some other basic stealth effect) by e.g. +4 (so normal planets are usually visible)
  • decrease enemy planetary stealth -5 if scanning facility or ship with detection part is in the system (or add the this to the scanning effect; i.e. -0 up to -12 (instead of -7))
Adding this is mostly orthogonal to everything else - the two effect are supposed to be able to cancel out each other, i.e. one should be able to do as usual with the extra requirement of deploying scout ships. This should not hamper basic functionality - e.g. one must still be able to see unstealthed planets without any user interaction/scanning time when starting. We could balance for something like e.g. two turns of scanning if we wanted - but that needs playtesting first before serious discussion.

one nice thing about the scanning time requirement is that other effects can speed up the detection (instead of the usual visible/not-visible effect)
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#13 Post by LienRag »

Problem with scanning/sending scouts to a precise location is that it's fun early game when you have a limited number of ships and has to strategize where you'll send them (and also when losing one due to enemy ambush is a big loss), but it becomes a chore later on when you have lot of ships and sending a scout everywhere doesn't cost anything except more player micromanagement.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#14 Post by LienRag »

Also, if you remember, I tested a part ("Gravitic Resonator" or something similar) that reduces Stealth in systems with Tiny planets and also (though less so) in systems with small planets.
I prefer these solutions as they create more granularity in stealth : basically, if you want stealth, avoid some systems, and if you want to be sure not to be ambushed, prefer some systems.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

visibility processing:
  • before combat, the maps are once initialised,
  • after orders/fleet movement, visibility is once updated
  • then after combat stale info is added (e.g. for ships/planets which got unstealthed during battle),
  • then visibility is freshly recalculated, FOCS effects are applied, visible starlanes/systems are recalculated (effects may e.g. remove those),
  • influence/ship/buildings are produced, python effects are applied, then FOCS effects are once again applied (AFAIK to set meters for newly created objects), then meter growth happens (PopGrowth..), visibility maps (objects, stale objects, lanes) are recalculated,
  • turn increment, object visibilty map is recalculated,
  • new techs are applied, new policies are applied, meter estimates are update, supply, update visibility
  • stats update, TurnUpdateMessage is send to player, containing the visibilities
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