Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#31 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:15 pm
Oberlus wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:47 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:44 am There's always the less drastic approach of moving all the pre-reqs down 1 detection tier. I'd like to test this as a simple easy to add starting point.
+1
So stealth_part_1 requires nothing, stealth_part_2 requires detect_1... Right?
I believe it would require thinking more thoroughly about balancing stealth and detection and how to decouple them, but if you want to test this quite simple solution I'm fine with it.
+1 will put on my list
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#32 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:13 pmprevent the case of equal value by e.g. detection value always being odd and stealth value always being even, so increases happen not with +1 but with +2
This would be problematic eg. if distant dependant or other scaling of values with position or time, so is not a good limitation to adopt.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#33 Post by Oberlus »

Then I guess the more intuitive way is detection happens if it is equal or bigger than stealth. And make it clear in the Detection Pedia page.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#34 Post by Ophiuchus »

Added discussion Changing PLC_CHECKPOINTS
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#35 Post by Ophiuchus »

regarding PLC_CONTINUOUS_SCANNING
Oberlus wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:26 pm I would also add a planet stealth malus of -10. Planets are also emitting stronger radar signals.
ah, i somehow completely missed that the continuous scanning stealth malus only applies to ships. So hidden empires actually can use the policy currently.

oberlus is right though that it is a bit inconsistent that the detection coming from planets and ships gets better (although detection range only increases for ships) while only ships are less stealthy.

if we could make the effect only based on ships that would solve both, E.g. decrease enemy stealth instead of increasing detection, like adding a target meter "unstealthy" to objects and that increases each turn by one when in scanning range. And decreases each turn by one when not in range. I think i would like that mechanism.

Could also add unstealthiness when participating in combat etc.

Note though that unstealthiness would be visible to the owner, so the use cases are restricted by that. For the given two it is fine. For combat there is no issue at all. For continuous scanning it reveals that there is somewhere an enemy active scanner, even if you do not see it. But that fits that policy well.

Not sure it is worth the cost though (two extra meters per object). Probably worth it.
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#36 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:31 am I don't see the need to any new stealth meter. Something that increases the unstealthiness of a ship is something that lowers its stealth (for anyone else to see).
the unstealthiness meter(s) would be for adding some kind of state to stealth. currently stealth value gets regenerated every turn from the known game state. (see post above for the basic idea)

having some state is really handy for tracking temporary longer-than-one-turn effects.
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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#37 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:26 am if we could make the effect only based on ships that would solve both, E.g. decrease enemy stealth instead of increasing detection, like adding a target meter "unstealthy" to objects and that increases each turn by one when in scanning range. And decreases each turn by one when not in range. I think i would like that mechanism.

Could also add unstealthiness when participating in combat etc.

Note though that unstealthiness would be visible to the owner, so the use cases are restricted by that. For the given two it is fine. For combat there is no issue at all. For continuous scanning it reveals that there is somewhere an enemy active scanner, even if you do not see it. But that fits that policy well.

I'm usually wary of your attempt at creating persistant unstealthiness (as the hide-and-seek game is imho the more interesting part of stealth) but this particular mechanism seems indeed quite interesting.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#38 Post by Ophiuchus »

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#39 Post by wobbly »

You could give outposts the stealth bonus of the capital species.

Also I had 2 random stealth ship ideas. Give Sly ships +20 on GGs (same as krakens), give a bonus for a dyson in system if combat doesn't occur.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#40 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:04 am You could give outposts the stealth bonus of the capital species.
Sounds OK to me.
wobbly wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:04 am Also I had 2 random stealth ship ideas. Give Sly ships +20 on GGs (same as krakens), give a bonus for a dyson in system if combat doesn't occur.
+1 to the stealth bonus to Sly-crewed ships on systems with GGs.
The second one, do you mean giving stealth bonuses to Dyson forests? Also sounds good.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#41 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:39 am The second one, do you mean giving stealth bonuses to Dyson forests? Also sounds good.
I was thinking of stealth ships/monsters hiding in the dyson forest, rather then the dyson itself.

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#42 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:22 pm I was thinking of stealth ships/monsters hiding in the dyson forest, rather then the dyson itself.
Nice idea, as the player will know that there is a potential threat there, and can then plan accordingly.

wobbly wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:04 am You could give outposts the stealth bonus of the capital species.
Not sure about that.
The way it works now, where if you want stealth you use Colony ships (that are a bigger risk than Outposts one since they're so expensive) is quite fine imho.

wobbly wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:04 am Give Sly ships +20 on GGs (same as krakens),
I don't think that as a general idea, giving stealth bonus to ships of a species that has a stealth bonus on their planet is good.
As of now, following enemy ships is a good way to find where their planets are, which is tactically interesting.

Also, there's my Situational Stealth proposal of yore, which is ready and tested, and gives Stealth bonus on Gas Giants (while being designed to be on a research path not really useful for Sly).

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#43 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:04 pm Not sure about that.
The way it works now, where if you want stealth you use Colony ships (that are a bigger risk than Outposts one since they're so expensive) is quite fine imho.
Not really keep in mind we are actually trying to fix this issue:
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:13 pm with hidden outposts I try to solve a problem: as a disconnected hidden empire i cant use outposts right from the start - but i should totally expand as fast as possible to find the right places to go - and outposts are the way to do that.

also hiding outposts helps beginners which think that outposting means marking territory (btw we totally should remove that passage from the pedia)

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#44 Post by wobbly »

What about:
Outpost: +10 stealth
Asteroid/Gas Giant outpost: +20 stealth
Resonant moon: adds bonus to outposts

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Re: Planetary Stealth and Detection (state of art)

#45 Post by Oberlus »

I like it

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