what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#16 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:57 amI think we have consensus to up max fuel. So somebody do this.
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4377

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#17 Post by Ophiuchus »

Moriturus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pm It's not an out-of-supply issue, it's very specifically an is-there-a-colony-at-the-launch-point issue. For example, if a squadron is sitting at an unoccupied solar system, directly one jump adjacent from an occupied world and well within supply, the trip time for that squadron to go one jump to reach the occupied world can be seven or ten turns. But if that squadron includes an outpost ship, and creates an outpost in that solar system, then once the outpost exists the following turn the trip time to the already-occupied planet is down to one or two turns.
there is no difference for the number of turns to reach the neighboring system between having an outpost there or being in supply. zero difference.

or your fleet is out-of-supply, in which case it is a out-of-supply issue.

but i think you meant you can only issue orders up until max capacity out of supply.

so in principle actually ensuring three max fuel capacity would be enough to solve that (taking in consideration that .
Moriturus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pm For another example a scout, starting from A, an occupied location in-supply, can move to C, a location far out of supply (three extra tanks, antimatter) with a trip time estimated at (say) ten turns. But if the scout has to slow down at location B (for example passing through a system with an enemy ship, even if there's no violence) then the remainder of the trip between B and C can suddenly become forty turns, in mid journey, just as though the scout had launched from an uncolonized system. This happens whether B is in-supply or out-of-supply.
what? it seems you are talking about a different issue. screenshot please.
Moriturus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pm Because squadrons that are sent separately can wind up with wildly different arrival times if anything disturbs one of the trips it's impractical to send fighters and troopers separately when attacking systems.
if you want to make sure they arrive the same time, yes, best to put them in the same fleet.
i do it differently though.
Moriturus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pm I run expensive, slow-to-build, heavily armored and sometimes even armed troopships and colony ships that I send with the main squadron.
yes, it can be a valid strategy to bring your own outposts/colonies to extend your attack range.
Moriturus wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pm ...1/10 movement speed doesn't work at all like just having the entire galaxy be ten times further apart...
again screen shot please (and save game). you seem to have an issue nobody else has.


my best guess: maybe you ran into a field which slows down the ships without you noticing it. do a mouse-over over your ship speed.
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#18 Post by Moriturus »

Just looked back at the topic after a couple of weeks, sorry for the vanishment as it turns out people hadn't dropped the topic after all.

No, I did not mean anything else.

This is a very different issue from the zero point generator not extending range, but it's definitely something that made movement difficult. Travel time is very different (much faster) if I am starting from a system with an outpost or colony, than it is if I am not.

Here is an image with two screenshots: Upper image: a 6-turn trip that will travel about 700 pixels across my screen. This is consistent when launching from inhabited systems.

Lower image, same screen, same scale, same turn: a much shorter trip that is projected to take 14 turns. This is consistent when launching from uninhabited systems.

In this case both trips are squadrons of exactly the same ship class - 'fighter 580' - and have exactly the same parts. Both squadrons are well inside my supply lines. But they are listed as having drastically different movement capability - 32 in the first case and 12 in the second. There is no "space weather" in either case.

Every ship class has a different (much faster) movement speed when launching from places with a colony or outpost owned by its own empire, than when launching from places that are either uninhabited or owned by an opposing empire. But under circumstances I can't quite nail down, it is very common for ships that start out at the higher speed to switch, mid-journey, to the lower speed. For example the 32 movement speed could hold for three turns and then suddenly the remainder of the trip would be carried out at 12. A change in the other direction (lower speed to higher) never happens.
Screenshot_2023-02-25_22-01-58.png
Screenshot_2023-02-25_22-01-58.png (490.31 KiB) Viewed 967 times

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#19 Post by wobbly »

Moriturus wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:35 am Every ship class has a different (much faster) movement speed when launching from places with a colony or outpost owned by its own empire, than when launching from places that are either uninhabited or owned by an opposing empire. But under circumstances I can't quite nail down, it is very common for ships that start out at the higher speed to switch, mid-journey, to the lower speed. For example the 32 movement speed could hold for three turns and then suddenly the remainder of the trip would be carried out at 12. A change in the other direction (lower speed to higher) never happens.
What version of FO? There are 2 things that give +20 uu speed, lighthouse buildings and interstellar logistics tech/traffic control (version dependent). Both these effects are based on a radius around the building/outpost/colony.

Edit: I guess the version is actually in the screenshot

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#20 Post by Moriturus »

it's definitely not the case that I have to wait and build a lighthouse before I can get launched at a faster speed. The speed is different one turn after an outpost is created.

And once the speed drops, it remains dropped even as the ships pass through areas with lighthouses.

It's kind of a cool idea though. It would make the "journey" pips show something like

origin ======>1=======>2======>3=>4=>5=>6=>7=>8========>9======>10===>destination

if you were starting from an area with a lighthouse, then crossing open space and approaching another area with a light house, to show you where you'd be spending turns at a crawl in the middle. But I've never seen that.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#21 Post by BlueAward »

Sounds like code path that handles in-supply flight is different than code path that handles out of supply flight, and the former perhaps does not apply speed scaling. I heard something changed in those code paths so you immedietely resupply even on a flyby which used not to be the case. Just a hunch some bug maybe sits there. Dunno I have never played with rescaled speed, may check it out later

Though you are touching issue here, that your speed can drop mid flight for some legit unbuggy reasons like flying into nebula or void rift but the GUI never accounts for that. On the other hand you don't always know such cloud is there until you get there, or that someone turned on ship slowing focus on nearby planet etc. But still, one would wish to know impact of known things that affect speed like ligthouses, nebulas etc

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#22 Post by wobbly »

So I'm a little unsure what actual issue the OP is bringing up (UI, actual game effect, both...), but what is clear is that currently the game rule for different ship speeds is going to cause buggy effects. There is nothing in scripting to account for it, whether we are talking about the speed boosters (traffic control, interstellar lighthouse) or the colony production times (e.g. https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... bld_gen.py) etc. I'd be surprised if the AI code acknowledges it.

Issue:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/4408

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

Moriturus wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:35 am In this case both trips are squadrons of exactly the same ship class - 'fighter 580' - and have exactly the same parts. Both squadrons are well inside my supply lines. But they are listed as having drastically different movement capability - 32 in the first case and 12 in the second. There is no "space weather" in either case.
can you hover the mouse pointer above the wrong ship speed to see if you get effect evaluation (what causes that speed meter values?)

edit1: the speed values are way low. titanic hull should have 80 speed AFAICR - did you set the speed game rule to e.g. ~0.15 ? or did you change anything manually in the scripting at any time?
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#24 Post by Moriturus »

The bottom squadron says 'titanic hull +8, n-dimensional engine matrix +4, interstellar logistics +20'
The upper squadron is the same, but without the 'interstellar logistics' addition.

Hadn't known about the availability of feedback about why the total speed was what it was. That's good. But I gather 'interstellar logistics' isn't supposed to depend on whether there's a colony at the launch point?

I did set down the base speed, to 10%. I wanted to see about the development and dynamics of a game with a completely different ratio of build times to travel times. But since it didn't affect things like 'interstellar logistics' that dynamic was completely destroyed halfway through the tech tree. So that was a failed attempt in the first place. That bonus should have been a '+2'.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#25 Post by quarague »

So there seem to be two issues at play here. First 'interstellar logistics' gives its 20 speed bonus only if you start from a colony or outpost. I'm not sure what the wording in the pedia is because this is observed in 0.4.10 version and in 0.5 version the effects of interstellar logistics is different. Second the option of ship speed scaling during universe description only affects ship base speeds and engines but not tech boni (and presumably also not policy effects). This sort of matches the description on universe generation but makes this option somewhat useless. If you change it, you want all speed to change the same way, not shift the balance between different sources of speed changes.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#26 Post by Oberlus »

Moriturus wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 am I gather 'interstellar logistics' isn't supposed to depend on whether there's a colony at the launch point?
quarague wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:41 pm So there seem to be two issues at play here. First 'interstellar logistics' gives its 20 speed bonus only if you start from a colony or outpost.
It doesn't. The bonus is gated by minimum distance to owned colony: if the ship was under 50 uu from an owned planet in previous turn, the bonus applies during this turn.
Moriturus wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 am I did set down the base speed, to 10%. I wanted to see about the development and dynamics of a game with a completely different ratio of build times to travel times. But since it didn't affect things like 'interstellar logistics' that dynamic was completely destroyed halfway through the tech tree. So that was a failed attempt in the first place. That bonus should have been a '+2'.
quarague wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:41 pm Second the option of ship speed scaling during universe description only affects ship base speeds and engines but not tech boni (and presumably also not policy effects).
Interesting!
The base speed of hulls and engines is affected by that scaling within backend, but the scripted effects outside of that are not.
Should be solvable: add the speed factor as a game rule (if it isn't already), and use it also in the scripted effects.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#27 Post by Ophiuchus »

About scaling not applying to certain effect se the issue wobbly did post above
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