Annexation feedback

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wobbly
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Annexation feedback

#1 Post by wobbly »

Only 1 comment for now, maybe more later, or someone else will chime in.

Currently you can't see the IP cost if you lack supply. This makes it harder to compare the cost of building troops compared to increasing supply.

I'd prefer the cost be displayed when annexing is not possible.

BlueAward
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Re: Annexation feedback

#2 Post by BlueAward »

wobbly wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 9:49 am I'd prefer the cost be displayed when annexing is not possible.
When you hover over the "Not Annexable" button, there's a pop up that is detailing some inputs to the annexation cost formula, including result of the formula i.e. the annexation cost

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Oberlus
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Re: Annexation feedback

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Hmmm... I guess I'd like it to be shown in the button too, to save some time and mouse swipes.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Annexation feedback

#4 Post by Geoff the Medio »

I think I added an objects list column for annexation cost...

Putting it visibly on the button when it's not actually an option could be misleading / confusing, or would take up extra space in oder to clarify that it's not presently allowed to annex...

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drkosy
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Re: Annexation feedback

#5 Post by drkosy »

I think it is fine as it is now. You clearly have all information you need in the popup.

The only thing is: I can't estimate how much I will save or wast if opinion changes. Don't know if that could be put into the popup but maybe it's to much.
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BlueAward
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Re: Annexation feedback

#6 Post by BlueAward »

Probably unavoidable, but the opinion values leak some info indirectly.

It's quite obvious with research, the way you can roughly divine how much research per turn one is doing, if you examine the pace of research in context of pre-requisites and minimum turns to research something. Like if I got radiation absorbing 5 turns after neutron scanner, you just know I had at least 30 research per turn at that time period. That's a delayed "warning" compared to just having the research-per-turn graph visible, but still quite good indication.

Watching opinion lets you divine some stuff, too.

Like who got what natives by the opinion drop post invasion (but then if those colonize then that's indicated too.. annexing I guess doesn't change opinion so is harder to "sense"), who is at war with whom, and how well generally one is doing (like roughly the more your various species love you, the better you are doing, pretty much, more colonies, ships, etc, though mostly it seems to be an indication of colonies count... it can be muddled by settling for others and gifting but still you take an alliance overview, then). On the other hand if one species loves you "too much", you've probably focused a lot on growth and not much on ship production (but have production to support that growth!)

Like in MP26, even before scouting it, I knew of the Great Phinnert empire (who got them and breeding them like rabbits they are). Or that o01eg got one of the three Gis Guf. Kobunturas took you long enough that I actually saw that happen. Also even if I didn't see it happen, just how many Sly colonies were popping up (pause for growth before the storm?)

I mean I'm just putting it out there. I don't have clear opinion is it good or bad. And probably unavoidable if you want a clearer view on the annexation formula (but do you, really?). I'm sort of used to the idea, as quite a few games I've played would show you explicitly some ranking or score in this or that area like military, production or science, and progress towards some types of victories (where it could be an art / metagaming to fly under the radar in such scores to.. suddenly win) so you didn't even have to work particularly hard to divine those

wobbly
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Re: Annexation feedback

#7 Post by wobbly »

I'd argue for including troops in the annex cost (if not already counted). A well garrisons colony should be more expensive to turn.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Annexation feedback

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2024 6:53 am I'd argue for including troops in the annex cost (if not already counted). A well garrisons colony should be more expensive to turn.
Side note: The fluff does not fit too well though (and is also highly species dependent). Its not clear if persuading 90 troops is more effort than persuading 9 troops.

On the game mechanics:

The allegiance of a country mostly changes with the allegiance of the military (else you have civil war). So having the cost scale in some way with the amount of troops makes sense. It also gives another way to protect from annexation (e.g. defense focus). On the other hand troops also help against invasion, so that seems wrong. Also troop count represents the ability to withstand invasion, not troop numbers (a single specimen could give e.g. 10 troop count) or how strongly those are tied to the empire.
So probably i would prefer another way of protection from annexation if that is needed.
Maybe some policy could enable the troop bonus.

I am changing my opinion on this every few minutes currently, but right now i would prefer not to put troop count into annex cost.
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Oberlus
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Re: Annexation feedback

#9 Post by Oberlus »

I like the idea of more defense troops meaning greater annexation cost.

Defense focus and defense troops are of little use right now. It's cool to force your enemies to need more troopships to finish you off, but that's it.
Also, annexation is a so... intangible way of stealing a planet from you that I feel like giving more options to defend against it is a good idea.

wobbly
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Re: Annexation feedback

#10 Post by wobbly »

Yep my argument is pretty similar. If you have a way to bypass troops then the value of the defense troop techs is much lower, and they weren't of high value to start with. Which isn't to say that couldn't be balanced in another fashion.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Annexation feedback

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 9:45 am Yep my argument is pretty similar. If you have a way to bypass troops then the value of the defense troop techs is much lower,
..hm..
and they weren't of high value to start with.
i think troops should matter on invasion.
we could e.g. all around double the defense troop amount (or only of defense tech if that is better). That would make invasion much more costly.
Which isn't to say that couldn't be balanced in another fashion.
i dont have a feeling for annexation balance yet. i really would prefer if the counter to annexation is something different than the counter to invasion.

and i do not think the solution should be: make troops meaningless for invasion.

of course we only have a limited number of interactions/ways of agency so reusing defensive troop mechanisms might be legit.
what ways currently exist to counter annexation?
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Oberlus
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Re: Annexation feedback

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:27 am i think troops should matter on invasion.
we could e.g. all around double the defense troop amount (or only of defense tech if that is better). That would make invasion much more costly.
Would that be fun or just more of a chore? We can try, but we could also try letting defense troops increase annexation cost. Not 2x, just a small multiplier, x(1+troops/20) or a small addition, +troops/10.

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:27 am i really would prefer if the counter to annexation is something different than the counter to invasion.
Now I realize there is no counter at all against annexation, apart from re-annexing the planet yourself and hope for the other empire to run out of IP.
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:27 am and i do not think the solution should be: make troops meaningless for invasion.
No one thinks that, no one suggested that. Maybe read slower.

wobbly
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Re: Annexation feedback

#13 Post by wobbly »

As far as I can tell the 2 defenses against annexation are:

1. Don't allow supply. e.g. military ships defending the colony
2. Make the species hate the other side by spamming suicide ships of that specific species at the enemy.

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LienRag
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Re: Annexation feedback

#14 Post by LienRag »

In general, the Annexation mechanism is extremely lame the way it is implemented now.
Very little agency for the defending player (if any at all, except not allowing supply) and a simple cost to bear for the attacker, with little preparations needed, if any.

Maybe once we get a better mastery of the new Opinions mechanisms we'll learn how to develop more interesting Annexations/Anti-annexations strategies (by choosing way more carefully the Species we put at the border, and the Policies we adopt), but I'd say that a better mechanism is needed anyway.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Annexation feedback

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:53 amtry letting defense troops increase annexation cost. Not 2x, just a small multiplier, x(1+troops/20) or a small addition, +troops/10.
not much of a fan of small effects. if it is not noticable.. then why bother and add the complexity?
small effects only makes sense if there are many sources for it in my opinion.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:53 am Now I realize there is no counter at all against annexation, apart from re-annexing the planet yourself and hope for the other empire to run out of IP.
yikes. Is stability part of annexation cost?
Oberlus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:53 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:27 am and i do not think the solution should be: make troops meaningless for invasion.
No one thinks that, no one suggested that. Maybe read slower.
I did not think that, I did not suggest that. Maybe write slower.
Making troops meaningless for invasion would have been an option for satisfying the stated problem domain.
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