Annexation feedback

Describe your experience with the latest version of FreeOrion to help us improve it.

Moderator: Oberlus

Forum rules
Always mention the exact version of FreeOrion you are testing.

When reporting an issue regarding the AI, if possible provide the relevant AI log file and a save game file that demonstrates the issue.
Message
Author
BlueAward
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 742
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Annexation feedback

#16 Post by BlueAward »

I'm not convinced about putting troops into annexation equation, for a different reason. In early game, annexation is really good option for bad offensive troop species to grab some natives. Though I suppose it all depends how much would troops factor in, plus they don't even have to factor into grabbing unowned planets, right?

Then again who knows maybe this is too powerful of a move, being able to annex natives, going around things like troops and defenses (though that sort of was the point, no?)

That being said, it really is a weird concept, having to defend border regions from annexation, but I guess it's mostly weird because it is new? Yes this is a much different meta, amass ridiculous amount of influence and go on annexation spree if you find a hole in somebody's border wall. Guess xenophobes lowering other empires' border regions stability could have an uncommon edge in such fight over souls.

Another piece of feedback on the stability lowering side is that the Insurgency requires interstellar infrastructure. I caught myself thinking otherwise, in some single player games I tried. It sounds fun to research Defensive Militia Training slightly faster than you would otherwise do, in order to grab some natives earlier/cheaper.. But then you realize you first need to shell out 300 / 380 IP to get interstellar infrastracture and Insurgency concept kind of loses its charm. I guess it makes sense fluff wise, to have interstellar infrastructure in order to project instability... then again propaganda broadcasts lower other empires' influence with mere sight of your random ship. Hm, maybe it was meant as more of mid/end game border struggle factor, not early game natives-grabbing factor

also, no likes/dislikes on Insurgency? Maybe some species could be understood as liking to meddle. Maybe some nice influence species maybe to give them nudge into that weird meta? Abaddoni? dunno

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#17 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:33 pm also, no likes/dislikes on Insurgency? Maybe some species could be understood as liking to meddle. Maybe some nice influence species maybe to give them nudge into that weird meta? Abaddoni? dunno
Laenfa is a natural fit but they already have 10 liked policy, maybe swap out conformance for insurgency.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#18 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:14 pm yikes. Is stability part of annexation cost?

Code: Select all

   auto DefaultAnnexationCost() {
        return std::make_unique<ValueRef::Operation<double>>(
            ValueRef::OpType::MAXIMUM,
            MinimumAnnexCost(),
            (ScaledPop() * ExpBaseSpeciesOpinion() * ExpBaseStability()) + (BuildingAnnexCostScaling() * BuildingCostsSum(SourceOwner()))
        );
    }

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2283
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#19 Post by LienRag »

The annexation formula accounts for the Species' opinion towards only one player ?
Or did I miss something ?
Which one, BTW ? The annexing or the annexed ?

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5841
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#20 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 9:30 am Laenfa is a natural fit but they already have 10 liked policy, maybe swap out conformance for insurgency.
That sounds quite fit.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#21 Post by wobbly »

Having buildings in the annex cost runs the risk that a player covers a planet in buildings just to make it harder to annex, by the way.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2283
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#22 Post by LienRag »

Well spotted...

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3524
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Annexation feedback

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:05 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:14 pm yikes. Is stability part of annexation cost?

Code: Select all

   auto DefaultAnnexationCost() {
        return std::make_unique<ValueRef::Operation<double>>(
            ValueRef::OpType::MAXIMUM,
            MinimumAnnexCost(),
            (ScaledPop() * ExpBaseSpeciesOpinion() * ExpBaseStability()) + (BuildingAnnexCostScaling() * BuildingCostsSum(SourceOwner()))
        );
    }
ok, according the counters are

denying supply to the planet

and making the cost high by increasing species' opinion of your empire,population,stability at the planet on one hand and building buildings on the other.

so researching population tech, cheap buildings
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2283
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#24 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:02 am ok, according the counters are

denying supply to the planet

and making the cost high by increasing species' opinion of your empire,population,stability at the planet on one hand and building buildings on the other.

Denying supply is a reasonable counter.
Increasing/managing Species' opinion of your empire is what we want that part of the game to be about.
Increasing/managing Stability also.
Population, much less so. Ability to annex more easily younger/smaller planets is maybe a good thing, shouldn't be linear though imho.
Buildings is reasonable as a way to avoid losing too easily important planets, but as you and Wobbly noted, is subject to exploitation...

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#25 Post by wobbly »

Turn 189-190 MP 26th. So you can annex an in-system planet using supply from a planet being invaded on the exact same turn. Not sure what I think about that other then that it happened and it looked odd. I'm guessing annexing occurs before troop combat.

More generally annexing a planet that's blockaded by enemies ships is a little strange, but most interactions where enemies have planets in the same system are a little strange.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#26 Post by wobbly »

I'm going to put forward the question of whether annexing should be able to occur in a system where combat take places. At the moment if there are 2 planets in a system, I invade (or annex) 1 then both players have supply in system.

You actually have a situation at the moment where Planet A can annex Planet B on the turn that Planet B annexes Planet A.

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2283
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#27 Post by LienRag »

As I wrote earlier, the whole Annexation mechanism is lame (I proposed a Citadel-like one long ago, obviously a much better one imho).
But right now, no it shouldn't be possible.

Note that I had all the planets marked at "not annexable"; I don't know why BlueAward was able to annex them.

This turn also they are all "not annexable" to me.

BlueAward
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 742
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Annexation feedback

#28 Post by BlueAward »

I think real life has something to say about annexation under active war zone whilst exerting... "influence"... to convince the populace that no, really, they want to join the other side. Though that's not exactly "peaceful" annexation, eh? Gamewise though, seems weird.

Even weirder that apparently I had annexation option but LR didn't. OK I think drkosy didn't either, though he has... not much influence. Next turn I still could annex both the asteroids and the world tree, and I even did annex exobots too. So something fishy. Y'all have the latest build? I upgraded recently to the official latest to match server

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2283
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#29 Post by LienRag »

For information, the Izsm planets are still not annexable to me on turn 191.

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Annexation feedback

#30 Post by wobbly »

You could you know, mouse over it and read the reason it's giving.

Post Reply