Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

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o01eg
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Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#1 Post by o01eg »

26th game is going to finish soon so I'm preparing next game. At least we will wait until #4765 will be merged.

Planned date for test games is April 23rd and for the actual game is April 25th.

Changes from previous game:
  • Single player victory.
  • Galaxy: multi-arm spiral with custom universe generator.
  • Diplomacy is disabled.
  • Monsters: High.
  • Natives: Medium.
  • Specials: Low.
  • Guarantee habitable planet in homeworld vicinity : True.
  • Nests always spawn wild monsters : 1
  • Wandering monsters ocassionally stop insystem : 1
  • Wild nest monster spawn factor : 1
  • Domestic nest monster spawn factor : 0.5
  • Fighter Damage Scaling: 5
Game page with players list: https://freeorion-test.dedyn.io/slow-game-FO0027.html

RSS with turns: https://freeorion-test.dedyn.io/atoms/FO0027.xml
Last edited by o01eg on Wed May 08, 2024 5:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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BlueAward
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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#2 Post by BlueAward »

I'll play, but I'd like to make some suggestions regarding settings for your consideration, compared to MP26

If we end up 4 (o01eg, LR, Oberlus, me?), I'd like to play 4 arm spiral galaxy. If we happen 6 people, then 6 armed. Otherwise, ring.

Monster always spawn hostile (and can stop in system), however make "friendly" nest spawn rate 0.5. Although if the change to swap techs regarding domestication ends up "in", then I guess should be fine not to have "always hostile", but I would still keep the friendly late lower.

I'd like to see "high" monsters (not "very high" or "extremely high")

Maybe turn on "guarantee habitable planet" setting, too? Mostly a boost to narrow planet tolerance species, I guess

Low specials, low natives, fine by me to continue so

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Oberlus
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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#3 Post by Oberlus »

BlueAward wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:29 am If we end up 4 (o01eg, LR, Oberlus, me?), I'd like to play 4 arm spiral galaxy. If we happen 6 people, then 6 armed. Otherwise, ring.
Good for me.
BTW, do we have a 6-arm spiral galaxy map?
Also, keep in mind it's quite easy that one of the four players spawns at the central cluster or spiral galaxies.

+1 to reduced friendly monster spawning rate, and especially to the domestication rearrangement. And I'm fine with whatever monster frequency.


And yes, please, turn on "guaranteed habitable planet".


Low natives seemed to me a bit restrictive for Diversity and for bad starts. In MP26 the only species I could get "early" was Sly from Wobbly and Humans from o01eg. I was trapped behind maintenance 2 monsters and with no detectable natives in my cluster, and only 2 inferno planets to colonize until I broke free.
Conversely, I got like 10 GGs in my area (but a single terran world, couple of oceans and deserts).

Low specials is also a bit too restrictive to Capital/Black Markets. I got one influence special, in a bad planet, that none of my species care about.

But I'm OK with low natives and specials anyways.

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#4 Post by BlueAward »

Oops sorry mixed up with another game. There's no 6 arm here

I would hope with the increased spread setting it would not be that easy for one to spawn in the middle. Maybe even increase from 20 to 25 or something to make it work extra hard towards that. I gather in MP26 we got a nice spread like I expected though quality of individual clusters could ne debated

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#5 Post by o01eg »

BlueAward wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 10:15 am Oops sorry mixed up with another game. There's no 6 arm here
There is still time to implement it :)
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LienRag
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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#6 Post by LienRag »

o01eg wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 6:10 am [*] Diplomacy is disabled.

Shadow diplomacy is allowed or not ?
On one hand, that's what makes the game interesting.
On the other hand, it takes an awful lot of time if one wants to do it right.

Imho if there are no shadow diplomacy, Galaxy size should be higher as not having any communication with other players makes the game much more unpredictable and stressful; and having a bigger Galaxy sort of mitigates the stress.

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#7 Post by o01eg »

LienRag wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2024 3:29 pm Shadow diplomacy is allowed or not ?
I think it's fine.
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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#8 Post by Oberlus »

I'm OK with shadow diplomacy. I'll try to do it right without consuming lots of time, which means assuming LR as permanent enemy from start and let our cannons do the negotiations :twisted:

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#9 Post by BlueAward »

I think "disc" galaxy accomplishes more what I imagined, than 4-arm spiral.

With 4 people, I imagined everybody would get their arm and the middle would be some kind of arena or maybe like the "lode space" LR imagined. Meanwhile, I played some games, and just watched some galaxy generations, and while 4 people are generally nicely spread around the edges of what was generated, the way this is generated, tends to be one person who gets markedly closer to the middle. 2 or 3 people get placed at the end of some "corridor", 1 or 2 gets to be like in a middle of a corridor, and one, yeah, markedly close to the middle. With more people or systems, like 60 or so, pretty much always someone gets bang in the middle so on one hand has access to most systems right away, but on the flip side, gets attacked from all sides

And with disc, it's more as I imagined, everybody gets their corner, and access to the middle to mingle. Granted, with 4 arm spiral, if you were put into corridor-ish part, you had longer way to the middle, meanwhile with disc everybody gets pretty short access, but fair enough, at least seems symmetrical.

This all is of course anecdotal evidence, but I would rather go with disc after looking into this. With 4 people, and like 55-60 systems per player, anyway. With more players/systems, ring seems "most fair" to avoid putting someone in the middle surrounded by everybody else, because there literally is no middle by design

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Stellaris uses some kind of sectors, predefined areas of map that can have stuff X on the systems that appear in them, or that can or cannot have starlanes to this or that neighboring area.

FO needs something like that to make universe generation and empire placement much easier.

Then, our 4-arm would have 4 regions that can spawn empires, the arms, and another one that cannot, the center, and the arms could only have links to the center, not to the other arms (that would be optional).

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#11 Post by wobbly »

It is possible to place the empires within a ring no matter what galaxy shape - e.g. bar an inner circle and outer circle from consideration during placement.

Not sure whether the effect would actually be good, just saying it's doable.

Edit: Functionally it would be 2 adjustable parameters in universe generation, 1 for outer ring width and 1 for inner circle width. Zero width for off.

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#12 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 7:44 am It is possible to place the empires within a ring no matter what galaxy shape - e.g. bar an inner circle and outer circle from consideration during placement.
Cool. Then next, for easier placement of empires, divide the ring in segments, one per player. And when placing allied empires, select contiguous ring segments for each alliance.
I bet it would work out of the box for disc and ring galaxy shapes.

X-arm galaxies would need a more complex geometry...

I browsed a bit https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... /galaxy.py and maybe there is a lot of this stuff already in the code (there is a grid of cells, and clusters of cells, the galaxy shape functikns have the geometry equations that would be needed to locate the right regions for empires...) and just need to understand it to use it.

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#13 Post by BlueAward »

The issue with 4 arm galaxy that made it not work as I expected was with starlane placement. Stars are placed within the given shape, like 4 arm galaxy, but then starlanes are placed such that arm can be chopped or two arms connected or connected to the core in random place along arm's length.

So you have some arm dead-ends that some players get put into, but some parts of an arm could be corridors connected from two sides to the core, and generally some parts more connected to the core than others.

Some idea present in other games is gating areas, by research usually. Like Civilization has ocean tiles you cannot cross until proper research. So depending on map type you may have a small continent/island for yourself and only later enter international stage. Or you have one neighbor to deal with in early game and once you consolidate, you get to pay a visit overseas. Similar idea in Endless Space is a different kind of connection between systems than starlane - wormhole, that you unlock later on (though you can also travel outside of starlanes, which is much slower, unless you have special perks on fleet's admiral).

In FO gating so far works through monsters that happen to be on a chokepoint, to overcome through stealth or brute force, though that's never intentional I believe

I could imagine gating through literally disconnected portions, and you'd need starlane bore to meet your neighbors. Though that seems too late or at least too expensive (apart from not working at the moment) so it could be star bore "lite", like a special you can activate (much) cheaper than boring yourself.

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#14 Post by wobbly »

I'm firstly not sure how gating solves the problem, as instead of having to get empire placement right, you have to get empire and gate placement right. My 2nd issue is it sounds like enforcing turtling of the worst kind. With potentially hostile neighbours you can still turtle, but you need to take steps (military/scouting/agreements/stealth) to cover yourself against potential aggression. I don't see what's actually gained by preventing player interactions.

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Re: Twenty-seventh game on the multiplayer slow game server

#15 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 11:14 am The issue with 4 arm galaxy that made it not work as I expected was with starlane placement. Stars are placed within the given shape, like 4 arm galaxy, but then starlanes are placed such that arm can be chopped or two arms connected or connected to the core in random place along arm's length.

So you have some arm dead-ends that some players get put into, but some parts of an arm could be corridors connected from two sides to the core, and generally some parts more connected to the core than others.
Yeah just looked at this, you always get that outer ring as when it connects starlanes there is a minimum number of jumps between 2 adjacent systems (8, 3 or 1 depending on starlane frequency).

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